Thursday, August 27, 2009
The Freudian Theory in LORD OF THE FLIES
Read the article titled "Unconscious" given to you in class from Adam Roberts's "Frederic Jameson". Many critics have deemed certain characters from Lord of the Flies as the specific aspects of Freud’s model of unconscious. Based on your reading of the novel, determine what character best represents each aspect of the unconscious—the id, ego, and superego.
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86 comments:
Based on my readings the character who fits the description of "id" is Ralph simply because he really didn't care HOW things got done, he just wanted them done. For example, the fire for them to be rescued was something he didn't too much care how it gone done and was maintained he just wanted to keep it burning. The "ego" character would be Piggy. He definitely knew who he was, his background history and didn't hesitate to tell his story. Especially when he told Ralph, in the beginning, that he stayed with his aunt in a candy store, he was very aware of his background. It was said, "[t]he 'ego' [is]... selfaware aspect of conciousness[,]" (Roberts 56). The character of Simon portrayed the "super-ego" simply because he went against some urges and seemed to be the most concious one. Even while talking to "The Lord of the Flies" he seemed to try to warn the others that the lord of the flies wasn't the parachutist they saw. It was infact, as the evil spirit said, that he was inside each and every one of the boys. My question to you is, why would this article be something useful to the story of "Lord of the Flies".
After reading "Unconsious" by Frederic Jameson, I have come to the conclusion that Jack suits the best to repersent the aspects of the unconscious. As Jameson was describing id as a feeling of "..just wants, and doesn't care how or why[they get their disired want]," I reminised back into the novel where Jack had the disire to slaughter a pig.(Jameson 56)In refusal to help Ralph make shelter, Jack continuously mention that, "[He] want[s] meat."(Golding 51) As a result, of not being voted as the leader of the bunch Jack's ego is hurt, so he sets his mind to hunting, where he is the leader. The id has over-powerment his conscious, when he has finally succeed that "want" from the id, which is slaughtering a pig, he feels impowerment, therefore increasing his ego to the next level, which is superego.
My Question:
Explain how the passage "Unconscious" could relate to the war that was going on in the background of the novel. Support idea with texual evidence.
Once I was through reading UNCONSCIOUS by Fredric Jameson, one character in particular from LORD OF THE FLIES stuck out more uniquely than the others in order to represent "id" (Jameson 2). Jack distributes himself sort of as the rebel, or the one who thinks on instict as opposed to thinking "logically or reasonably" (Jameson 12). During one portion of the book, Jack sneaks over to Ralph's campsite in the middle of the night where he knew Piggy slumbered. Jack's significence of showing up there was to receive, or steal, Piggy's specs in order to start fires for his own campsite. During this ransack, Jack managed to start "kicking" a petite boy "in the face", and gave Ralph a "loose tooth" (Golding 168). Jack had could care less if he hurt anyone in the process of stealing the glasses; thus rightfully claiming him as the "id" aspect.
The term "Ego" specifically describes the character Ralph in LOTF. He's intelligent and seems to always know what strategies will give the boys a successful survival. Ralph is "conscious and selfaware" (Jameson 3). He was constantly constructing and distributing ideas in order for the group of boys to get rescued. He always put the group first, and even suggested to "help rescue teams to find us" by simply stating " we must make smoke on top of the mountain. We must make a fire" (Golding 38). Ralph, like many other boys in the beginning of the book, had no desire to stay for a long visit on the island. Unfortunately, as the novel goes on, many of the boys lose the desire for Ralph to continue being the leader of the lost group of boys, despite his best and logical ideas to be rescued.
After reading the definition term for super- ego,"...an inner-policeman, a force that manifests itself in feelings of conscience, shame and guilt, and acts as a break on desires and urges", Piggy immediately sprung into my mind (Jameson 4). He was constantly obeying the rules that the leader of the group, Ralph, had given in the beginning of the book. For example, a conch was discovered by Ralph and Piggy from the first few pages of LOTF. This conch was used to "call the others" (Golding 16). It was prohibited to speak over one who had possesion of the conch, as wel. Many of the boys on the island lost their respect for the conch as the book progressed on, but even on page 180, once the conch had little to no meaing any longer, Piggy still managed to shout "I got the conch!" to the other boys, in order to gain silence and have his mind heard (Golding 180). Piggy continuously referred back to rules and regulations that were constructed in the beginning of the novel.
To answer Christina Z's question, I would say that Hitler was much of and ID aspect personality 24/7. Like Jack, he didn't thouroughly think out the consequences of his actions, and could care less if people were hurt in the process of gaining his mind's desire. Hitler was looking for someone to blame for the loss of the first World War. Those being the Jews, in Hitler's eyes. He was on a mission to conquer and destroy every Jewish indivisual in Europe, and soon after that, the world. He just "wants, and he dosn't care how or why" just as long as he retreived his mind's ambition.
Do you think minor characters in the story such as Samneric, Ralph, Simon, etc., could be portrayed similarily to the three larger characters, Jack, Ralph, and Piggy, along with their chosen aspects? Explain.
Based on "Unconscious" by Frederic Jameson, I agree with Amber B. the person that fits the title of "id" is Ralph. All Ralph cared about was the smoke, he even said " ... I tell you the smoke is more important than the pig..." (Golding 81) Ralph was going crazy he could have a had a good life on the island with food and everything, yet he decided to go hungry just for a wasted effort in trying to be rescued. Ralph just wanted to get rescued. The "ego" is Jack, he feeds on the praise he gets for " cut[ting] the pig's throat.."(Golding 75) Jack gets his confidence from the boys who chant, "Kill the pig. Cut her throat. Bash her in."(Golding 75) The "super-ego" is Samneric, because they joined Jack's tribe they felt "...shame and guilt..." (Jameson 56) When they first saw Ralph, "... their new and shameful loyalty came to them." (Golding 187) In Response to Amber B.'s question: This article is useful to "Lord of the Flies", because this helps the reader better understand the characters in the book. If the reader knows that the "id" is Ralph they know what to expect in the novel.
My question: Analyze why Freud would split up the conscious in three parts ? Where would he get such an idea from ?
Please make sure to respond to the other questions written by previous students.
When I was reading Unconscious by Frederic Jameson I felt an automatic connection of characteristics between the "id" and the character Jack from Lord of the Flies. In LOTF, I felt that Jack continuously did any actions that he felt would benefit himself. He was not worried about the other characters in the book. The term id was described as, "...it just wants, and it doesn't care how or why" (Jameson 13). In LOTF, Jack wanted power that he did almost anything to get it, he crept in at night to take the specs, "They blinded me. See? That's Jack Merridew" (Golding 169). Jack completely left Piggy defenseless, in order to have the "power" of survival to start a fire. Jack cared for himself only and didn't care who he harmed in the process of his success, which gives him the description of "id."
I think that the character that best fits the description of the "ego" is Ralph. I think that Ralph is a character that always thought highly of himself. He never seemed to lack confidence or courage. The description of ego is described as, "the conscious, self-aware..." (Jameson 3). Ralph fits this description throughout the book, "Ralph smiled and held up the conch for silence" (Golding 23). Ralph shows his confidence throughout the book of always being the child that can stand up in front of a crowd and make decisions for the whole group which makes him fit the description of "ego."
I feel that the character Simon best fits the description of "super-ego". Simon, I feel best fits the description because he displays, "shame and guilt..." (Jameson 5). Simon is the child in the book that talks to the Lord of the Flies. While he is talking, he feels as if he is losing his mind, consequently, "He fell down and lost consciousness" (Golding 144). Simon catches himself talking and believing what a pig head covered in flies is saying to him. I think that after Simon finds out that the beast was, he felt guilty for knowing, and had to go share the news with the other boys. While attempting to tell the boys what the beast was, he is killed. I think that due to Simon's guilt and shame leads to him having the description of "super-ego."
In Response to Nessa K.:
I think that Freud broke up the conscious in three parts is because they are all completely different. Compared to the characters in Lord of the Flies, each of the characters have very different personalities similar to the three different conscious parts. I think that trying to put all of the three parts together would be similar to combining Jack, Ralph, and Simon all together.
My Question:
Can you think of any other examples of when the three descriptions of "ego, super-ego, and id" would fit in? Explain.
Based on my readings over "Unconscious" by Adam Robert and "The Lord of the Flies" by William Golding, I was able to select three characters from the novel which truly symbolize the three aspects of the unconscious: the id, the ego, and the superego.
The 'superego' is like a "sort of inner-policeman, a force that manifests itself in feelings of cnoscience, shame and guilt..." (Robert 1). In other words, it comes in when we want to tear someone to pieces, but in the end, we decide not to. The character that best represents this idea of controlling and making wise decisions, would be Piggy. Piggy can be seen as a guiding force, trying to make things straight with Ralph and also with the entire community of kids. He can be described as the 'intellectual' force in the background, making choices that would benefit society. Despite Ralph's ignorance towards Piggy throughout the novel, we understand towards the end how he was a "wise friend." (Golding 202). He was like the inner conscience of all human beings, telling us what to do and what not to do. Piggy worked for what was morally right, as this can be seen through his sensitivity as well as his true friendliness towards Ralph.
Another aspect of the human unconscious is the "id" which is where "all our primitive desires and urges come from: it is not accessible to conscious thought..." (Robert 1). This "id" aspect is what humans really are. We cannot control these desires because we are born into this world with it. It is our nature to hold these types of feelings. This can be related to the idea of sin, as referred to in the Bible. We are born of sin and nothing can change that. That is why it is impossible to avoid sin: sin is in our blood. The same way with sexual desires; we are born with it and nothing we do can change our inner desires. It's not a why or what, it's just there. Jack best represents this idea because he shows us the true savagery and brutality within all human beings. We are all like animals and we all have strong emotions, which Jack clearly posessed. He represents the hate within all of us, something which cannot go away because it's in our blood; that is why we must also have a superego which will balance out the strong emotions of the 'id' aspect. Jack represents the id aspect because he does not contain a "superego." This can be seen with his obsession with meat; he wants it and will do anything to get it, displaying the savagery and brutality within all of us. The meat can be what we as humans are born with, our natural "instincts". Our natural instincts can never go away.
The ego, in the middle, with the superego above and the id below, is the balance between the two. The best representation of this quality is through Ralph. Ralph displays common sense throughout the novel. He was in the present, the practical, and the reality. He knew what needed to be done in order to be rescued, thus displaying a superego quality. He knew right from wrong, in this case. However, at times, he also showed man's true nature. This whole situation of "ego" can be seen with the fire. Ralph knew that in order to be rescued, a fire would be needed. However, in order to get the fire going, he abused Piggy for his glasses. Thus, he was in between.
In response to Nyesha D., I do believe that Simon can be placed in a category of the "unconscious." He would best be placed under the aspect of superego. Simon is special in that he is quiet but when it comes down to the situation, he is very practical and real. This can be seen while the group is debating over the nightmares. He is wise, in a way just like Piggy; he knows right from wrong and tries to save the community by letting them know the true identity of the beast.
Question: What do you believe was the author's purpose in implementing children instead of adults in "Lord of the Flies"?
After reading Lord of the Flies, the character that represents the description of "id" is Ralph. Ralph always wanted things to be in order and to get done. He would always make rules or plans for others to follow and he didn't really care how things got done as long as they got done. For example the fire that was always lit. Ralph kept on saying that the fire needed to be watched and that it was the only way they would be rescued. He didn't really have a problem with anything as long as someone continues to watch the fire so that it wouldn't go out. The "ego" would be Piggy. He always was sure of himself and he knew who he was without a doubt. Even though he wasn't respected by everyone, he still never gave up on himself. He was always aware of what was going on. When Jack and some of the others were calling him fatty and other names, he still put forth his opinion and tried to make them see what the right thing to do was. The "super-ego" would be Jack. Jack always acts on instincts and his own opinions. He didn't do a good job with listening to others and what they thought. He thought it would be better to go hunting instead of watching the fire. Jack always said that you need food to survive more than you need a fire. While he was out hunting and nobody was watching the fire, the fire went out and that caused an argument among Ralph and the boys. Jack didn't think about the importance of having a fire going at all times. To answer Amber Brook's question, this article would useful to the Lord of the Flies because it gives you a better understanding of what the characters are like and who is what. You can see that each character kind of has a role that they are based around. My question, too anyone, is what is the significance of knowing which character represents one of the three elements.
To me, the signifigance of knowing which character represents one of the 3 elements is that it would help you to understand each character better. For example, if you were trying to figure out Ralph, you would look at Freuds theroy and you would be able to understand Ralphs actions better. Also, I think that it would add substance to the book and make the book more interesting to read. Because of this substance, if you know that there are conflicting elements in the book, you would be more hooked on reading it.
My Question:
Explain how the 'Fredian slip' works and give an example of this in the book, "The Lord of the Flies".
Frederic Jameson explains his “coined” names of id, ego, and super-ego in his article titled “Unconscious” (Jameson 1). In this article, the id is described as the “subconscious… where all our primitive desires and urges come from: it is not accessible to conscious thought” (Jameson 1). In Lord of the Flies by William Golding, Jack is the character that is most suited towards this portrayal. He is constantly generating issues by not thinking about the consequences of his actions, such as when he built a bonfire and ended up “[setting] the whole island on fire” (Golding 45). Jack acted on a whim without realizing the effects, showing that he did not care about the penalty of his actions; therefore he is best portrayed as the id characteristic.
The word “ego” was described by Jameson as “the conscience, self-aware aspect of consciousness” (Jameson 1). This definition illustrates Ralph in LOTF, as he is constantly concerned about the safety and well being of the boys on the island. He is first to comment about having a leader, saying that “we ought to have a chief to decide things” (Golding 22). He also calmed the younger boys, telling them that “we want to be rescued; and of course we shall be rescued” (Golding 37). Although as kind as Ralph is, throughout the novel several of the boys lose the respect for him as the leader of the pack, regardless of his passion to be rescued.
After reading the description of super-ego, “a force that manifests itself in feelings of conscience, shame and guilt and acts as a break on desires and urges,” I knew that Piggy fit this description perfectly (Jameson 1). Piggy followed Ralph with a great deal of pride, even after Ralph told the others about his nickname Piggy. He was a hardworking member of the group, and constantly came up with intelligent ways to make their life on the island easier. “Piggy was… so full of pride in his contribution to the good of society that he helped fetch wood” and always helped Ralph whenever he needed it (Golding 129). This demonstrates that Piggy is loyal and would always follow the rules that Ralph created.
To answer Margaret H.’s question, I do believe that the minor characters such as Simon, Samneric and Roger could be portrayed to the three main characters in the novel. Every character in LOTF could be compared to the three descriptions of id, ego and super-ego. The three terms can be used to describe any of them, as Jameson himself stated that “any person’s consciousness is made up of… id, ego and super-ego” (Jameson 1). For example, Roger never left Jack’s side and always backed him up, showing that his character was similar to Jacks for they got along.
Throughout the novel, the characters morals and beliefs changed. My question is did any character in LOTF change from id, ego or super-ego to a different description and term?
Based on my understanding of the story, I believe that Ralph fits the description of "ego". I believe this because Raplh knew about hisselif as a person, which is the description of the "ego". Ralph also had a good head on his shoulders as he tried to think think logical about the situation they were in. Jack fits the description of the "id" because he acts off of instinct in the story. The "id" fits him best due to his "primitive desires and urges" in the story as he acts like an animal during the story (Freud 56).
The "super-ego" which "is a sort of a inner-policeman" fits Piggy the best(Freud 56). Piggy would listen to the other people that led the island, but spoke up for himself when he said " I got the conch"(Golding 180).
To answer Nessa K. question, I believe he did this to divide the information up so that we can obtain it and also to show that the unconscious as different parts to it in order for it function well. For example, if we only had an "id" then, we would be animals because we would act on impluse and not on reason.
My question is how does Freudianism relate to your life. Justiy your answer.
After reading "Unconcious" by Fredric Jamesson, I can certainly say that the "id" represents Jack. Jack had always been competitive for his passion which was hunting. He gained the title of a hunter and took it to another level by hurting others and not caring about their feelings. Although when it comes to the term "ego," this term best represents Ralph. The reason it would be Ralph is because he had thought highly of himself while holding the conch and being pronounced the leader. Ralph had always been aware of his priorities which made him feel as if he was "on top." The character that best describes the term "super ego" I believe has to be Simon. According to this term, this character has to restrict themself from the unconsious desires. As Simon had seen Jack and his tribe always hunting, he had also felt the need to join like all the others. Although as this was happening, he yet restricted himself from hunting. In response to Alfred's question, I believe the purpose of implementing children instead of adults in LOFT was because children are always changing. Once they realize their mistake, they grow older and learn from them.
My question is: What do you think Golding was trying to portray by adding these aspects to his book?
When I had finished reading "Unconscious" I'd have to agree that the "id" character from LORD OF THE FLIES would have to be Ralph because all he ever wanted was for that fire to be lit at all times. Ralph didn't care that much about others, he just wanted the fire. He would always bother everyone and ask if the fire was lit and not think about anything else. The "ego" character in the story would have to be Piggy because he starts out noticing the conch even before Ralph and knows that there were others on the island besides themselves. For example, Piggy and Ralph are sitting near the bathing pool when both of them notice something in the water. Ralph tends to wonder what it is, but Piggy immediately realizes what it is, and its purpose. The "superego" character would have to be Jack because of his ambitious desire to kill cost them the chance to be saved . He had to go and hunt when they could have been saved right there and then and go back home where they could eat real food.
In Response to Amber Brooks:
I think the article really helps us pull out the characters in the story and identify who the real good guys and bad guys are and what kind of importance they have.
My Question:
Why do you think it is so easy to pull out the id, ego, and superego characters from the novel? Support your opinion with evidence.
After reading "Lord of the Flies" by William Golding and "Unconscious" by Frederic Jameson, Piggy is represented by the "superego". "The 'superego' is a sort of inner-policeman, a force that manifests itself in feelings of conscience, shame and guilt and acts as a break on desires and urges" (Jamesson 56). Piggy was always aware of what was going on and had his head on straight. He obeyed every rule set by Ralph, the leader of the group. For example, a conch was found early in the story and became one of the main items on the island. Ralph put in place that whoever had the conch could speak, no one else. Piggy followed this rule perfectly and pointed out when someone didn't. He would simply say, "I got the conch" (Golding 180). As Piggy died, the conch crumbled in to pieces, showing that the island and group of boys on it had lost their control and manner. Although Ralph was the leader of the island, Piggy had the brain and common sense of the island.
The definition of the "ego" is best shown through Ralph. He is always thinking ahead and knows what ideas will best suit the boys and their situation. "The 'ego' is the 'I', that part of me that thinks 'I am me', the conscious, selfaware aspect of consciousness" (Jameson 56). Ralph was constantly thinking of better ways to do things on the island and many ways to be rescued. He tried his hardest to keep order and be aware of problems going on, but due to the 'id' of the island, Jack, the leadership he had fell apart.
The "id" is symbolized by Jack. He never thought ideas or thoughts through and this in turn got him his own followers on the island. He had many followers and was always doing bad things, for example, stealing Piggy's glasses and Ralph's fire. Jack was unaware of key ideas needing to happen and always had the urge to kill. His urges never stopped, causing the issues between Ralph, Piggy and Jack. "The 'id', also known as the 'unconscious' or 'subconscious', is where all our primitive desires and urges come from:..." (Jameson 56). Jack not only had desires to hunt pigs, he always urged to kill threats, such as people. Jack and his group killed Simon, and he instructed Roger to kill Piggy. He didn't plan ahead and think about the problems his actions could bring him in the future.
Answer to Margaret:
I do believe that the smaller, characters could be portrayed with the larger ones. Just because they played less of a role does not mean they are less important. The jobs they did have in the book were very important and helped put the book together. Many of the smaller characters are symbolized by larger ones in different ways. Some were similar and their personalities and ideas were shown through larger, more developed characters.
Question:
Do you think that Jack could be considered a "good" character in the book and also symbolized by the "better" type of "Unconscious" character? If yes, explain using textual evidence. If no, tell me why.
Ashley G. (7th period)
After reading LOFT and the unconscious the id would have to be Jack he just wants things to get done,not worrying about the process.The ego in LOFT would be Piggy.He is the selfawared one in the story and tries to do whats best for the group even when the group doesnt agree. The obvious super-ego is indeed Ralph. For example, when simon was beaten to death, he wasnt the one doing the beating,yet he felt bad.
In the beginning of the book it clearly states that Ralph would be considered as the "ego" because he knows who he is throughout this book.The "id" character would be Jack because he let his urges take over him.It seemed as though Jack became obsessed at the thought of killing pigs that he let his urges turn himself into this monster that nobody wanted to be around.The "superego" character would be Simon because he witnessed alot of things in this book that he felt were not right.most of the time, Simon would end up feeling shamed or frightened on what he just witnessed.He actually thought about what he did before he did it also.
Answer:there was no question in the last post.
my question:Explain why LOTF was a good book to identify which character's were "id","superego",and "ego"
As i completed the book and met the each character and put them into serperate catagories. First,te "id" was Piggy because he had a name that suits him. Andwent with the whole corpulence look he had. And he didnt mind to be called his ideal name. Next, the "ego" person would be Ralph because he wanted to have that leadership role so he had to follow the whole ego. He knew as longas he had the conch in his hand he will always be leader. Ralph would say, "I bet if I blew the conch this minute, theyd come running." Statments like those he would say to ensure his ego. Last, is Jack the "superego" one, his statment of mind was always at the thought to become superior towards the others but it eventually turned violent towards the others and tried to inforce them o thinking Ralph is no good. Jack say,"And the next is that Ralph said my hunters are no good." Jack would say petty things like that to show his dislike of Ralph.
Though, to answer Amber B.'s question this article was basd on the id and ego way. How they were catagorized and in "Lord ofthe flies" they did have the characters to fit that description so it worked out well. My question is, does the article be based upon a peers you might meet in life?
After reading Unconscious, by Adam Roberts, I came to the conclusion that Jack would represent the model of unconsciousness. Jack always wanted to do things his way. He exhibits the super-ego element by making “acts… on desires and urges” (Roberts 56). For example when he left the group of boys he stated the he was “done playing” games (Golding 157). He did this because he was tired of being told what to do by Ralph and decided he wanted to be his own leader. Jack also shows the id element by always wanting to hunt. He loved hunting pigs because it was a “desire and urge” (Roberts 56). The last element, ego, is shown by Jack when he introduces himself to Ralph and Piggy, “I’m Merridew” (Golding 20).
To answer Margaret’s question, I do believe minor characters could represent the larger characters in their chosen aspects. Every character has a different personality, but all of them have characteristics of one of the three elements of unconscious. So they all have at least one element which they represent.
My question is, do you believe that the boys on the island could recognize Jack and Ralph’s elements is they were shown what they were? Explain.
after reading unconsious the ego is ralph because he knows what he is doing."i am chief".the id is jack because he did everything on instict and didnt really know what he was doing."next time i will slit his throat". the superego was simon because he was the force that manifested itself from shame guilt etc."i think the beast is our fear."
answer for christina z.
the passage unconsious totally relates to the story, because lot things happened subconsiously,for example the littleuns thougght that they saw the beast.also some people was very aware of themselves like ralph who knew he was chief"i am cheif" and also like piggy who knew he was fat and he knew where he was from.
Question
what happened to jack? where did he go wrong? give textual evidence
Reading "Unconscious" and based on the information that Frederic Jameson gave us about 'id', 'ego', and super-ego' i feel that Jack fits into the element of 'id'. Jameson said 'id' was basically "...it just wants, and doesnt care how or why."(Jameson 13.In LOTF Jack seem to always "want, want, want", he wanted to be leader, couldnt so he didnt listen to Ralph, all he cared abot was himself but since he couldn be a leader then he hunted instead, he rambled about how much he wanted to hunt. The element 'ego' i say suited Ralph the best because he was "...councious, selfaware..."(Jameson 3). He demonstrated councious and selfawareness when he kept explaining the boys that they need to be making a fire during the day in order to give a signal with the fire's smoke to having any chance of being saved. Now the 'super-ego' is most difinitely Piggy,i feel this way because Piggy always seemed to be following the rules, and seeing things should be fair like a policeman would, which described 'super-ego' as Jameson says "The super ego i sa sort of inner policeman,..."(Jameson 4).
Responce to Beejals question:
Golding was trying to portray by adding these aspects to his book that even though all characters had the same goal, they all had different conscious, and gaining that goal in different ways by thinking differently.
My Question:
Which aspect of the unconscious best represents you, and why? Also which character from LOTF are you more like.
Reading "Unconscious" and based on the information that Frederic Jameson gave us about 'id', 'ego', and super-ego' i feel that Jack fits into the element of 'id'. Jameson said 'id' was basically "...it just wants, and doesnt care how or why."(Jameson 13.In LOTF Jack seem to always "want, want, want", he wanted to be leader, couldnt so he didnt listen to Ralph, all he cared abot was himself but since he couldn be a leader then he hunted instead, he rambled about how much he wanted to hunt. The element 'ego' i say suited Ralph the best because he was "...councious, selfaware..."(Jameson 3). He demonstrated councious and selfawareness when he kept explaining the boys that they need to be making a fire during the day in order to give a signal with the fire's smoke to having any chance of being saved. Now the 'super-ego' is most difinitely Piggy,i feel this way because Piggy always seemed to be following the rules, and seeing things should be fair like a policeman would, which described 'super-ego' as Jameson says "The super ego i sa sort of inner policeman,..."(Jameson 4).
Responce to Beejals question:
Golding was trying to portray by adding these aspects to his book that even though all characters had the same goal, they all had different conscious, and gaining that goal in different ways by thinking differently.
My Question:
Which aspect of the unconscious best represents you, and why? Also which character from LOTF are you more like.
After reading the article "Unconscious" and comparing the ideas of id, ego, and superego to characters within Lord of the Flies, i believe Ralph to be the ego, Piggy to be the super-ego,and Jack to be the id. The ego is defined as "the 'I', that part of me that thinks 'I am me', the conscious, selfaware aspect of the consciousness." In Lord of the Flies, Ralph is the most defined of all the characters, the protagonist of the novel. The id, being the inate primal force of want within every human, and the superego, the mind's defense against the urges of the id, are just influencing factors on the main character of the freudian theory: the ego. Without the ego, the id and the superego cease to exist, and likewise, without Ralph, neither Jack nor Piggy would have any definable purpose in the book: Piggy would've been killed early on, and Jack would have burned the whole island and killed himself and everyone else. Ralph is also proved to be the ego in the beginning of Lord of the Flies when the boys choose him for chief, the chief being the leader, thinker, and decider of the group, as the ego is the leader, thinker, and decider of the mind.
Piggy is the super-ego in Lord of the Flies. "The superego is a sort of inner-policeman, a force that manifests itself in feelings of conscience, shame and guilt and acts as a break on desires and urges." Piggy acts as the intelligence and order on the island, especially when Jack and his choir become hunters and begin spreading disorder. "Piggy was speaking now with more assurance...'I said we could all dod without a certain person. Now I say we've got to decide on what can be done. And I think I could tell you what Ralph's going to say next. The most important thing on the island is the smoke and you can't have no smoke without fire.'" (Golding 129). Piggy doesn't actually make the decisions, but suggests what should be done to Ralph, the ego, who then decides on the actual course of action. Piggy is also the super-ego because he takes an active role in confronting Jack, the id, and attempting to debunk Jack's barbaric notions. When Jack takes all the biguns besides Ralph and Piggy to Castle Rock, Piggy and Ralph, along with Samneric, take the conch to confront him about his choices. Piggy tells Jack and his lot "'Which is better-to be a pack of painted Indians like you are, or to be sensible like Ralph is?'" (Golding 181). Piggy doesn't call himself civilized, because by himself he doesn't truly exist: only when he's with Ralph does he really represent civilization. Piggy counts himself as part of Ralph in this regard.
Jack is the id in the story. The id is defined as "the 'unconscious' or 'subconscious', [where] all our primitive desires and urges come from' it is not accessible to conscious thought, but it affects all our acts. This 'unconscious' embodies the primal, instinctual drives towards gratification." All Jack seeks is gratification, the primal satisfaction derived from power over other creatures and people, and especially from hunting and killing. It was Jack that originally organized the hunting parties, and even abandoned the signal fire because he wanted to hunt. "Ralph spoke. 'You let the fire go out.' Jack checked, vaguely irritated by this irrelevancde but too happy to worry about it." (Golding 69). Jack is too focused on satisfying his desires to think about anything else, making him the id.
In response to Lauren's question: no, I don't believe that Jack could be viewed as a sort of "good" unconscious character in LOTF. Jack seeks only to satisfy his desires and doesn't care for any logical attempt at rescue or organization. He shuns the authority of the conch, ignores his duties with the signal fire, and even defies Ralph's authority as chief by making his own tribe. He represents the unconcsious because he doesn't think or process the wants or desires he has: he just goes through with them, and is only held back by the super-ego, whom he has killed.
Question: Which part the Freudian structure does Simon best represent? Support with textual evidence.
After reading UNCONSCIOUS by Fredric Jameson. i thought that Jacks suits the best the unconscious because it describes it as "just wants it doesn't care how or why..." (Jameson 56)and that's how jack was in Lord of the flies. Jack wanted power and he doesn't care how he gets it.
the super ego would be piggy because he was the only one that first felt guilty for killing simon he was the one that was the more logical one as describe in unconscious
Answer to Q:
unconscious could relate to the war in the background of the novel beacause the war that was happenning in the book is mostly with there selves and each other's mind set. like unconscious it was a battle between the minds and self control of the people.
my Question:
compare the characters in the beginning and the end of the book, did any of the characters change to an id, ego, or super ego or did they not chage at all support your answer.
Based on "Unconscious" by Frederic Jameson, i feel that everybody has the three elements Jameson has stated "id," "ego'" and "super-ego." You may not realize you use these three elements but you probably have. In the story "Lord of the Flies" there are characters that do reperesnt some of these elements. I would say that the character Jack would represent the "id" element because he didnt really care about anything but himself. He just wanted things to go his way. Now the element "ego" could have been Ralph or Piggy. But most likely i would say Ralph. He was always aware and took things in consideration. the element "super-ego" could have been Piggy or Simon. Simon was basically the only good hearted kid on the island and worried about other people, not just himself. Piggy could fit into that element too because he was always by Ralphs side and always helped with things.
To answer Brenda's question i would say i represent the element "super-ego" mostly because im always nice and never put people down. Im also always looking out for people and helping people out. In the book "Lord of the Flies" im mostly like the charcter Simon only because im never negative and always want to get through tings the best way i can without anything bad happening.
My Question:
What element would your best friend fit in to? And what character from lotf would you want to be friends with?
After reading both, Lord of the Flies by William Golding, and Unconscious by Adam Roberts, it is clear that Jack best represents the "id" in the book. He wasn't conscious of how he and the rest of the kids were going to be rescued; he just wanted to focus on the enjoyment he got out of killing pigs. "He's not a hunter. He'd never have got us meat. He isn't a prefect and we don't know anything about him. He just gives orders and expects people to obey for nothing" (Golding 144). Jack didn't like the way Ralph was running the group of kids, because he focused more on a rescue signal, rather than hunting. However, Jack's priorities were the complete opposite. He didn't think ahead, as in when they would be rescued, how long the meat would last, and the importance of the fire.
The character that best represents the "ego" is Ralph, because he isn't exactly sure as to when they will be rescued, but he knows that his goal is to keep a signal fire going, otherwise their chances of being rescued are next to none. He is more reasonable than Jack, and he is aware of the problems that come with being stuck on an island. "'I'm chief. We've got to make certain. Can't you see the mountain? There's no signal showing. There may be a ship out there'" (Golding 122). When all of the others were worried about hunting and eating, Ralph kept his mind set on the fire being lit at all times. He knew that as long as there was a signal fire, they still had a chance of being rescued. No matter how many pigs they killed for meat, there weren't enough pigs on the island to keep them alive forever.
Piggy would best represent the "super-ego" in the book because he was always thinking in a logical manner, and when he had something to say, it was usually relevant to the situation. "'We got no fire on the mountain. But what's wrong with a fire down here? A fire could be built on them rocks. On the sand, even. We'd make smoke just the same'" (Golding 147). When Ralph is ready to give up on the signal fire, Piggy suggests a fire down by the platform. Not only did they no longer have to travel so far to fuel the fire, but they also wouldn't have to worry about coming across the beast. Piggy not only knew what the problem was, but he usually always had some sort of contribution to give in order to help come to a conclusion.
In response to Alfred A.'s questions, I think William Golding used children instead of adults because children better represent an unorganized society, since they don't have much knowledge of how to run a whole group of people. Had he used adults, the reader might have expected the adults to be more responsible and mature.
Question: If Jack was elected chief in the first place, do you think the conflict and destruction of the island would have occurred in the same manner? Why or why not?
After reading Unconscious by Frederic Jameson, I think that the “id” is Jack. He is the one who gives into his desire to hunt and eat meat. He was “unconscious” in the sense that he said or did whatever he needed to do. Whenever Piggy would talk, he would call him “fatty” and throw more insults at him. When he needed to fire, he and his group “stole it [Piggy’s glasses]” (Golding 170). He is savage and therefore, kills Piggy. Piggy would be the “ego” because he is fully conscious about everything. He has a great amount of knowledge and that helps the tribe maintain the fire. He pays attention to the rules and respects others when they are speaking and are in possession of the conch. But he is also “conscious” of the fact that he deserves respect as well and he tells the others that he’s “got a right to speak” (Golding, 44). The “superego” would be Simon because he had been traveling around the island even though he was probably extremely hungry and tired. He had the ability to control his needs to keep on going.
To answer Amber Brooks question, I think that this article is useful to the story “Lord of the Flies” because it helps the readers gain a deeper understanding of the characters. This article makes the student apply what they know about the character and even learn more about him.
If you were to live in a society consisting of the same personality, which one would you prefer to be in and why? Explain what life would be like.
After reading "Unconscious" I thought that "id" represents Jack perfectly.In LOTF Jack would do anything to get want he wanted.For example,"Look! We've killed a pig...Ralph spoke."You let the fire go out"(Golding 690).Jack was so excited about killing a pig that he didn't care about anything else.Other examples are that he really wanted to become the leader, and how he really wanted Piggy's specs.
I think that "ego" best fits Ralph.He knows what he's doing, and at the beginning of the novel he was the leader. He comes up with ideas for the group in order to be rescued off of the island.For example,he made huts for shelter."Been working for days now.And look!Two shelters were in position,but shaky.This one was a ruin.And they keep running off..."(Golding 50).Other examples are how he came up with the idea of the fire and the rules for the conch.
"Super-ego" best fits Simon. Simon always does the right thing.I thought that he was the calm one in the novel.He didn't get caught up in the drama about the beast, and he was always nice to the younger ones.An example is,"The older ones aren't much better.D'you see?All day I've been working with Simon.No one else"(Golding 50).This shows us that Simon was the only one who was working with Ralph.
In response to Brittany M., I do think that this article could represent peers you might meet in life.You might meet someone who always does the right thing,is a leader,or always needs what they want.
My Question:
Is there an example of the 'Freudian slip' in LOTF?
Based on the article unconscious,the character that best suits the position for "Id" is Jack because he worked "outside the realms of logic"(56). All Jack wanted was to succeed in hunting, and he didn't care how he got it done. The character that fits "ego" is Ralph, because Ralph had always thought of himself as the leader, making him aware of himself. The character that best suits "superego" is Simon because he has always restrained himself from switching sides while getting temptations to join Jack.
To answer Beejal's question:
I think William Golding was trying to potray that every person has their own mentality and that nobody is the same.
My Question:
Who do you think has a better personality; Ralph or Piggy?
Based upon my reading of The Lord of the Flies and my understanding of Adam Roberts's "Frederic Jameson", the character whom i think fits the description of the "super ego" postulate is Ralph because he was the leader and had to be self conscious about his decisions because they would affect not only him but everyone else. "Let [Ralph] be chief with the trumpet-thing", one of the youngsters said earlier in the book. (Golding 22) another reason he fits this aspect is because Ralph could have been just like Jack and ruled the island with an iron fist, but he "inner(policed)" himself and let his actions be determined by the island as a whole and not just his greedy wants and desires. (Roberts 56)
The character that best fits the "ego" postulate element, in my opinion, would be Piggy. i state this because Piggy is the intellectual one and pushes his desires to the side and replaces those selfish desires with thoughts of survival. He does the things that will keep them alive instead of the stuff his inner self wants to do. He stays within himself in society and bases all his rationalities in conscious thought, not caught-up-in-the moment emotional feelings.
Lastly, the character that fits the "id" postulate element would most definitely be Jack. This is said because throughout the whole book Jack is possessed with a persistent, nagging desire to kill things and hunt. He is also obsessed with power and being in charge. These two things are not something of common thought, but rather sub-conscious thoughts and emotions probably embedded upon him in his childhood. He is built to lash out and be offensive because he feels, without actually acknowledging it, that he is all on himself and that he must make other submit to him to be safe.
answer to Patty P's question: i think there a re a couple instances in the book were the "Freudian slip" occurs, such as when jack and Ralph are on the mountain and the ship sails away, Ralph challenges Jack and Ralph unconsciously challenges back by pushing Jack. They both get caught up in the moment and start yelling at each other over what they think was right and what was wrong, and therefore emotions from the conscious and unconscious spill out in the heat of the moment, and Ralph says to Jack "You talk. But you can't even build huts- then you go off hunting and let out the fire..." in an almost sarcastic sense, implying that Jack is an idiotic person and it shows the amount of disdain that Ralph has towards Jack. (Golding 70)
My Question: extending on Freud's postulates, what other aspects or elements do you think could be added to, in conjunction with, or taken out of the level system that Freud discusses, and why?
After reading Unconscious and comparing the ideas of id, ego, and super-ago to the characters of Lord of the Flies. I think "id" would fit Jack because he is able to provide for the desires of the boys. He also thinks before he acts instead of thinking,"logically or reasonably" (Jameson 12). He acts against every whim of his instead of thinking of the effects of what can happen afterwards. The "id" portrayal would fit Jack perfectly.
"Ego" would describe Ralph perfectly for he is,“the conscience, self-aware aspect of consciousness” (Jameson 1). Ralph is one of the most defined characters in LOTF, the advocate of the story. Without an "ego" in a story there is no point of the other characters, in this case Jack and Piggy. We are able to see how Ralph is the "ego" when he becomes the leader of the group in the beginning of the book and how he grows and changes throught the time period.
Piggy is the "Super-Ego." He fits perfectly for this portrayal because he serves as a, a sort of inner-policeman, a force that manifests itself in feelings of conscience, shame and guilt and acts as a break on desires and urges" (Jamesson 56). Piggy was the hardest worker on the island who tried to give ideas to make life easier for their stay on the island. He was loyal to Ralph even though he was treated like rubbish. He was given very little respect for his weight and overall characteristc. Generally spaeaking if he were alive throughout the rest of the book he would have stayed loyal and listened to all of Ralph's rules.
To answer Beejal's question: I think William Golding was trying to show us how each of these characters had a specific element nad how they used it throughout the book. He may have also wanted to show the differences between certain charcters that may have similar characteristics.
My Question: Why do you think its easy for us to see the id, ego, and super-ego of LOTF? explain.
After reading “UNCONSCIOUS” by Fredric Jamesson, the “id” is defined as the “subconscious… where all our primitive desires and urges come from: it is not accessible to conscious thought” (Jameson 1). In the novel “LORD OF THE FLIES” by William Golding, I believe Jack fits a perfect description of “id”. I believe this because he is always willing to oppose his love towards hunting. For example, Jack started a fire and eventually he lit the whole island on fire. Jacks character represents, that he did not care about the rude actions he has done towards the boys and the island. However, “id” best symbolizes Jacks characteristic and personality.
The description of “ego” is described as, "the conscious, self-aware..." (Jameson 3). I think Ralph fits this description because he always shows confidence and willing to be rescued. Ralph is also proved to be the ego in the beginning of “LORD OF THE FLIES” when the boys choose him for their leader, helper, guiding of the island. He had always known that he can accomplish anything he believed in.
I think Piggy is the “super-ego” in “LORD OF THE FLIES”. "The superego is a sort of inner-policeman, a force that manifests itself in feelings of conscience, shame and guilt and acts as a break on desires and urges." (Jameson 1). Piggy did not care what other people thought about him even after Ralph told everyone his name was Piggy. He is also the one that corrects everyone and the one that always giving suggestion when they are not needed. This shows that Piggy was a very hardworking, intelligent, and helpful boy of the group because he showed effort to be rescued from the island.
To answer Chanel V’s question, I believe Simon from LOTF changed from id, ego and super-ego because he has all the qualities in being subconscious, self-aware, and a sort of inner policeman.
My question: Which element from the article “UNCONSCIOUS” would fit Simon’s characteristics from LOTF? Support your answer with textual evidence.
After reading "Unconscious" from Adam Roberts's "Frederic Jameson," three characters from Golding's "Lord of the Flies" made a prominent link to each of Frued's three aspects of the unconscious.
Jack, the antagonist from the "Lord of the Lies," best represents the id aspect of the unconscious. Frued states that "id works outside the realms of logic or reasonableness; it just wants, and it doesn't care how or why" (Roberts 56). Jack's savagery and thirst for power overtakes his sense of logic and craves for more power.
Ralph best represents the super-ego aspect of the unconscious. In the article it is stated that "the 'super-ego' is a sort of inner-policeman... feelings of conscience" (56). Ralph is the leader of the few boys that keep a hold a hold on humanity and do not revert to a primitive instinct.
Simon is an accurate depiction of the aspect of ego. Ego is the "conscious, selfaware aspect of consciousness" (56). Simon realizes the truth within himself and all of man, that evil is internally created and is within everyone, and that is what man is.
Reply to Christina Batchelor:
If I could be one of the ego's, I would choose to be super-ego. It's important to not forget who you are, and what you stand for.
My question:
How do the characters ego's affect the novel?
After reading Unconscious by Adam Roberts, I noticed many connections of characteristics between the "id," the "ego," and the superego."
I first came to the conclusion that Jack was with out a doubt the "id." In Lord Of The Flies, I noticed that Jack was not so much worried about the other characters in the book, but mainly focused on any action that he felt would benefit himself. The term "id" was described as "...it just wants, and it doesn't care how or why" (Roberts 56). The "id" is also described as, "[working] outside the realms of logic or reasonableness" (Roberts 56). In Lord Of The Flies, Jack wanted power and ultimate rule so bad that he did almost anything he could to get it. These actions, including leaving the tribe, stealing Piggy's glasses, and torturing the "littuns," are so unreasonable, characteristics that the "id" posses. The act of stealing Piggy's glasses was very unreasonable, for "[it] blinded [Piggy]" (Golding 196). Ralph said he had no problem with giving Jack fire, but jack just was interested in himself and having power. This thirst for power and unreasonableness characterizes Jack as the "id."
I think that the character that best fits the description of the "ego" is Piggy. I think that Piggy always was sure of himself and he knew who he truly was. He was an individual, and knew exactly what he wanted and needed in order to survive. He never seemed to lack confidence or courage in himself, and never let any of the other boys actions change his true opinion and feeling. Piggy always thought as an individual, and tried to separate himself from the others. The description of ego is described as, "the conscious, self-aware aspect of consciousness" (Roberts 56). Piggy fits this description throughout the book, even when Jack told him "...so you shut up" (Golding 43). When Jack and some of the others were calling him insulting names involving his weight, or even telling him to shut up, he ignored the comments for the most part, and still put out his opinion on what was occurring. He did not let these insulting comments affect who he was or what he believed in. The fact that he was sure of himself and his beliefs prove that he is the "ego".
I think that the character that best fits the description of the "ego" is Ralph. I think that Ralph is a character that has a sense of what is right or wrong in one's conduct, which impels him toward right action. He never seemed to lack the sense of "civilization" that many of the boys loose. The description of ego is described as, "...a sort of inner police man..." and "...feeling of conscience..." (Roberts 56). Ralph fits this description throughout the book for he feels guilty of the murder of Simon. Ralph shows his feelings of conscience and good conduct throughout the book, and also shows the characteristics of a "superego" by feeling guilty for his wrongdoings, including simon's death. These characteristics he shows justify that he is the "superego."
In Response to Nessa K.:
I think that the conscious is broken down into three parts because they are all completely different. Similar to the three different conscious parts, the characters in Lord of the Flies have very different personalities and beliefs. I think that trying to put all of the three parts together would be similar to combining Jack, Piggy, and Ralph all together. Three different people can not be combined, just like the three parts of the conscious can not be. They must be very separate from each other to work.
My Question:
Throughout Lord Of The Flies, the characters morals and beliefs changed over time. Do you think any characters in Lord Of The Flies change from the metaphor id, ego or super-ego to a different description and metaphor.
*My description for Ralph is suppose to say "superego." Sorry for the error!
I have concluded that jack represents the "id", because he just wanted to kill the pig and get meat. He didn't care about how it was going to be possible or what effect it would have on other things,like building shelters, or keeping the fire going.The character that represents "ego" would be Ralph.He realized that he was the chief and how the things went on the island depended on him. And that he had to make the right choices for everyone to survive.And the last element "super-ego" represents Simon.Simon, with his concsience, concluded that there isn't a thing such as a monster on the island, but the monster lives in every child.
RESPONSE TO PEER'S QUESTION.
In response to Amber Brooks question, I think that the article "UNCONCIOUS" would be something usefull to the story, because it helps the readers to know the characters in more depth in terms of their conciousness.After reading this article we actually thought about how the three elements would relate to the characters, otherwise we wouldn't have.This article helped us to understand why certain characters did certain things and why they chose a particular way to do it.
MY QUESTION.
How do you think the three elements "id", "ego",and "super ego", of the characters helped to create the plot of the "Lord of the flies"?
Based on the reading "Unconscious", I found seemingly that Jack is definitely the "id". "The 'id' is where all our primitive desires & urges come from..." (Jameson 56). He has the instinct of savagery and violence which he has throughout the entire book. Jack was also very frustrated when he lost the election to Ralph since the one thing he desires most is power. There was always a major urge to steal & kill, plus always cause trouble without thinking ahead. In this case, he didn't exactly have common sense about the future and what choices he made to affect it.
The "ego" character would unquestionably be Ralph. He took charge without hesitation. "The 'ego' is the 'i' that part of me that thinks 'I am me', the conscious, selfaware aspect of consciousness" (Jameson 56). Ralph has a pride of being a great leader. He also knowingly is the protagonist in the story and comes up with ways & ideas that will help the boys get rescued. Ralph doesnt care about how some things get done because he wants them done asap.
The super-ego is best defined by Simon because he is always aware of his surroundings just like a policeman. "The 'super-ego' is sort of inner-policeman, a force that manifests itself in feelings of conscience, shame & guilt & acts as a break on desires & urges. He feels guilty about most things that happens, which soon overtakes & eventually kills him.
To answer Sharlin J's question:
I think Ralph has a better personality because he is more enthusiastic about getting off the island and cares about getting the work done.
According to Freud's theory, what is samneric's unconscious behaviour, or do they have one?
Based on the reading, I confronted the three aspects: "id", "superego", and "ego" and found them to coincide with some of the "Lord of the Flies" characters. The "id" would most definitely be Ralph because of his leadership abilities. He had no true order in his leadership but knew what was to be done and how." ... I tell you the smoke is more important than the pig..." (Golding 81)Ralph was the type of person that wasn't ready to give up and fully adjust in the island so he kept his hopes alive. The "superego" would be Simon because no matter the situation. he would try to resolve it. He was obviously the most conscious one, but upheld his urges and just went with "the flow". It is a struggle to withstand the powers of a mans dwelling evils, but Simon for one knew how to withstand temptations. The "ego" would be Piggy. Piggy was always selfless and truly cared about surviving and used his wit to withstand constant peer pressure.
Answering Jane P.'s question:
I think that if Jack was elected as the leader, chaos would control the island within a matter of days. his mindset the whole time was to 1) find meat and 2)find the beast. His evil within him broke out much easily than any other character. Jack would probably destroy the boys emotionally and physically.
My Question: Why do you think Golding added "id", "ego" and "superego" to his book? Explain.
I chose Jack as the “id” because he has “primal, instinctual drives” such as hunting, as well as “other desires”, such as “success [and] status” (Roberts). Jack didn’t care if he had to step on toes to get what he wanted; he let his impulses and primitive urges take over, working “outside the realms of logic or reasonableness” (Roberts). I decided Piggy best fit the “superego” because he can “restrain [his] desire”; he instead spends his time worrying about the littluns and the more logical side of the situation (Roberts). Piggy was the most grown-up and selfless person on the island, which also makes him superego. Ralph would have to be the “ego” because he is “in the middle” of id and superego, which makes him very wise, and a seemingly obvious leader. Unlike Piggy, the superego, Ralph also has common sense, and unlike Jack, the id, Ralph is more logical and is efficient. As an example, he knew the boys needed shelter, but he also knew they needed meat.
Answer to Regini: I do think it’s easy for us to see the id, ego and superego in LOTF because the boys’ real personalities come out in times of desperation such as this one.
Q: Do you think LOTF would be the same if two or more of the main characters were both id, ego, or superego? Explain.
The character who fit the term of "ID" the best would be Jack. He symbolizes the primal urges and actions of humans. When he wanted Piggy's specs, he just took them. He did not think of how it would affect the others (and if he did, he didn't care), he took them because he wanted to have them.
When the savages were chasing Ralph; Jack didn't care "how or why" they were going to get (and presumably kill) him, he just did because of his dislike towards Ralph.
The "Super-Ego", or the part that is a break on the Ego and ID, would be Piggy. Piggy was always seen as the intelligent one of the group and informed the others of their situation (like what should be done) and of the repercussions of their actions (such as when Simon was killed). Piggy also tried to keep order by reinforcing what the conch stood for; organization and humanity.
Lastly, the "Ego", which is self aware, would be Ralph. In the beginning, Ralph was the one who brought everyone together into a group. Throughout the book, Ralph refers to everyone as "we", instead of just himself (as a leader). Ralph focused on forming a well-sustained society and keeping the signal fire lit for rescue ,things which benefited everyone as a whole (one entity), as well.
To answer Nicki J.:
I believe William Golding added (consciously or unconsciously) the ID, Ego, and Super-Ego themes into the story to create depth and send a message. The characters, which filled those roles, advanced the story and interacted with one another in such a way that the reader was able to discern between the symbolism of the story (Like Jack being primal urges and savagery while Ralph and Piggy were organized society).
With the characters in the novel that you have said play the parts of "ID", "Ego", and "Super-Ego", explain how they interacted with one another and why it led to the craziness and savagery that it did.
After reading the Unconcious from Adam Roberts "Fredric Jameson" and reading the LOTF the character who fits the description of "id" would be Jack because it said, ....it just wants, and it doesn't care how or why (Jameson 56) and in the book LOTF Jack did what ever he needed to do to get off the that island he didn't care HOW or WHY it gone done. The "super-ego" would fit the desritpion of Ralph ....is sort of inner-policeman (Jameson 56) This fits a Ralph beacause he was the one that kind of felt like was more than just Ralph, he was a person he who needed to save everyone. In the the story LOTF Ralph was the leader of the boys the leader of the pack. And "ego" would fit the descrition of Simon beacause in the story LOTF he felt like things were all evil and he felt like he had to find or defeat it.
To answer Sharlin J's question i think Piggy has a better personality he was kind of like the peace maker and the person who wanted to have in put on things and wanted to help and have order to get off the island but he just wasn't heard.
My Question:Why did Jack act that way towards Piggy?
After reading “Unconscious” by Adam Roberts, and linking the thoughts of “id,” “superego” and “ego” with the characters from “Lord of the Flies” by William Golding, it was clear on who fit the part.
In my opinion, the aspect of “id” was best suited for Jack. According to “Unconscious” the aspect of id “is where all our primitive desires and urges come from” (Roberts 56). Jack displays this aspect through his intense desire for meat. His inner desire is so immense that he is willing to do anything for that, and that, sadly, includes killing. Jack represents every human being’s unavoidable emotions. Everyone has a strong desire that can turn into an obsession if not carefully controlled.
“Superego” is said to be “a sort of inner policeman, a force that manifests itself in feelings of conscious, shame and guilt and acts as a break on desires and urges.” (Roberts 56). I feel that “superego” is best described to fit Piggy. “Superego” is like holding our tongue. In other words, a person’s conscious. Piggy was like Ralph’s conscious. He thought through every obstacle or decision that may have come across him. Even if he knew he was agitated, Piggy voiced how felt toward Ralph’s rash decisions and his methods of doing things. Towards the end of the book, where Ralph was being hunted down by Jack and his minions, Ralph felt sad that he no longer had Piggy who would normally tell him something wise, and motivated him to keep going.
“Ego” is said to be “in the middle” (Roberts 56). Ralph is best suited for this aspect because he isn’t as wild and out of control like Jack, but he doesn’t tend to think everything through thoroughly like Piggy. Ralph dos display characteristics of both “id” and “superego” but doesn’t tend to stick with either extreme. Ralph displays “superego” when he thinks meticulously about getting rescued, and his idea of having a fire running at all times on the top of the, mountain. He displays “id” behavior when he acts brutally towards Piggy to get his glasses to start the fire.
My answer to Beejal K’s question on why Golding would add these three aspects to the novel would be to shed light on human behavior by categorizing it into three basic parts. This entire novel, in my opinion, is to show the three biggest aspects on how a typical person lives. Basically, every person is either very conscious of his/her surroundings, uncivilized, or in between.
My question is: If these three aspects were not incorporated into the main three characters of the book, would the book change? Meaning, would the main theme of the book change, and would the end result be different than what was given?
In Jameson’s writing “Unconcious” he describes three thought chambers that affect the conscious mind. These three chambers are “’id’, ‘ego’, and ‘super-ego’” (Jameson 1).
The ‘ego’ is the chamber that is bare consciousness, what our eyes see, what our ears hear, and what our fingers touch. ‘Ego’ is “in the middle” between ‘id’ and ‘super-ego’ (Jameson 1). I saw ‘ego’ in relation to Roger. He doesn’t have any deeper thought or reason to what he does. The first instinctive urge that comes to his mind is the path he takes. This is shown when Roger suddenly is urged to start throwing nuts and rocks at Henry. From just the falling of nuts from a tree, a thought was provoked in his head that urged him to look “from the nuts to Henry and back again” (Golding 62). With one little push from nature after another, he finally ended up aiming for Henry. Thus proving Roger’s constant element of living in the moment.
The ‘super-ego’ is the invisible boundary put on our thoughts and actions. It is the section that gives us a feeling of guilt or shame as punishment when we pass said limitations. Also, it is the section that gives us manners, the ability to wait, and put “restrictions on [the] unconscious desiring” from the ‘id’ (Jameson 1). I related this term to Ralph. He is the law of the island, and tries, though fails, to keep order in place. You see this when he attempts to organize everyone even before everyone was together after the crash. He tells Piggy that they have “got to find the others, [they’ve] got to do something” (Golding 14). It is here I think that Ralph humbly assumes authority over the other stranded ones by calling all of them together and proclaiming to them that they “are having a meeting”, their very first one (Golding 20).
‘Id’ is the element way below the surface. It can also be referred to as “the ‘unconscious’ or ‘subconscious’” (Jameson1). ‘Id’ is the source of all our unspoken desires and thoughts. It is “not accessible to conscious thought”, but this one section affects all of our actions, and has no restrictions (Jameson 1). I related the ‘id’ to Jack. No matter what is better for the rest of the island, what seems like a good and fun plan for the now, he does it. And the ‘super-ego’, Ralph, always tries to but boundaries and guilt-trips for the missteps of Jack and his crew. This is displayed when during a normal conversation with Ralph, his instincts slowly start to take him over and he starts repeating mindlessly “’We want meat’” (Golding 51). Without even a fight from Jack, his lust for kill and meat take him over. Therefore proving that his characteristic changes have no boundaries.
To answer Alfred’s question, I believe that the author used children instead of adults in this novel to show that this could happen to anyone. The behavior and transformations shown in this book are drastic and far beyond what we, as contained, spoiled children, can imagine. We are all vulnerable to the metamorphosis of inhumanity. Golding might have also used children to display the often childishness and stubbornness of our society and government leaders in today’s time.
My question is: If you were trying to portray the same points, themes, etc., as Golding by writing your own story, what is one thing you would change about his story and why?
After reading Frederic Jameson's "Unconcious", I have come to the conclusion that Piggy, Jack, and Simon are the super-ego,id, and ego, in that order. Piggy definately fits the "inner policeman" description (Jameson). He is constantly being portrayed as the one trying to mediate and bring control to the boys' hostile situation. Sometimes he is pushed aside and ignored, much like our super-ego is. Jack, is the embodiment of of id. He represents humans' hidden desires. Jack didn't realize he wanted the savage life of a hunter, but his subconcious mind did, which is what made him into what he became. Simon, is the ego element in LOTF. He seems to be the only character that was not affected by the island. He came to the island as the quiet, sickly boy, and remained the quiet, sickly boy until he died.
Question:
What is the significance of Simon's death as apposed to the boy with the mulberry scars's death? Why did his death have such a different impact on the boys on the island?
Response to Jane P.:
I don't believe the island would have been destroyed at all. The whole conflict with the destruction of the isaland was the result of Jack's jealousy. If he was given the power he desired in the first place there wouldn't have been a need to try and kill Ralph.
From reading the I believe that Jack is the "super-ego" beacuase after he became the chief he thought that he run the others. Especailly after he went on his first hunt and killed a pig, he thought he was the ruler. Jack just wanted to eat meat all the time and did not care on how he was going to get home. Jack and the other hunters were unconscious to me. Only because they did not care if they hurt Piggy's feelings or not. Even though Piggy just simple tried to help the others out with a little smartness, they did not want his help.
My response to Sasha.C.'s question:
I believe that the phychologist do not really know a lot about the subcontious mind so they have to on what they think they know. So they would have to kepp contridicting them selves if they are not really sure on how people show their unconscious mind.
Based on my reading in the novel, i do believe that Ralph is more suited to being like the "id" part of us. As explained throughout the book, he didnt necessarily care how certain tasks were completed, he just wanted them done. He ultimately seemed like the leader of the "group" in persay, and notice that most of the time every leader in the story, you see the "id" part in them, all because you know that theleader has to take iniciative. He has to draw lines, he has to give standards. Ralph had so many urges that he had whent against. But at the same time, he also had super ego in him. Im sure that over 70% percent of the time he had the urge to be frightened, he had the urge to be scared. Nevertheless, his "super-ego" so called, had kept that from happening, thuis leading to the end when he and the others come out battered and bruised, but alive and worry-free.
My question is, do you think that you can prove freud's theory of a person's conciousnes? If so do believe that it is correct, if not possible?
In the article "Unconscious" written by Frederic Jameson, he describes our 3 main thought processes on a day to day basis; 'id', 'ego', and 'super-ego'(Jameson 1). Throughout "Lord of the Flies", these three thought processes become apparent in some of the main characters.
First comes 'ego'. Jameson describes the 'ego' as "the 'I', that part of me that thinks 'I am me', the conscious, selfaware aspect of consciousness." (Jameson 1.) To me, this completely resembles Ralph. He knew who he was as a person. Throughout the whole story he knew that he was the rightful chief of the entire island. He made clear, and conscious decisions throughout the whole book. To me, Ralph tried his hardest to keep everyone motivated. From the ending result of the book, we know that obviously didn't work, but in the beginning he kept the morale high. He urged everyone to "keep the fire going" and repeated over and over again that they "needed smoke" in order to be rescued.
Next, I came to the conclusion that Simon fits the mold of the 'id' character. Jameson says that the 'id' is also known as the "'unconscious' or 'subconscious', is where all our primitive thoughts and desires come from." (Jameson 1). I chose Simon specifically because of the scene when he meets "The Lord of the Flies". I recall reading that Simon was somewhat out of it when he had his encounter with "the beast" of the island. Although he didn't necessarily WANT to follow or listen to what the monster had to say, he did as he was told. The Lord of the Flies, in my opinion, dug deep into Simon's subconscious mind. He had him convinced that he was an actual living thing, other than just a head on a stick.
Finally, there's 'super-ego' which is described as “a force that manifests itself in feelings of conscience, shame and guilt and acts as a break on desires and urges.", To me, Piggy was the 'super-ego'. Throughout the whole book, Piggy always took Ralph's orders. No matter what it was, Piggy always did as he was told. Whether it was lending Ralph his specks or doing dirty work like taking care of the "littuns", Piggy followed all orders. When Piggy falls to his death, Ralph recalls all the bright ideas he had. Piggy's intellect and superior reasoning helped keep the island alive.
To answer Janey's question, in a way I believe lord of the flies might still be the same, to a certain extent though. For example, if there was more than one 'ego' or 'super-ego', I think the island would have been much more chaotic and reckless. When it comes to 'id',though, I believe there could be more than one person on the island acting in their subconscious minds.
My question is, how would Lord of the Flies been different if all of the characters had gotten along? For example, if Jack had never gone power crazy and formed his own cult against Ralph. Explain your reasoning.
After i read "Unconscious" by Frederic Jameson i agreed that the "id" should definitely be Ralph. I thought it should be Ralph because he always wanted things to be done without him giving off any effort. He wanted things to some how be done and that they would some how be saved but at the same time he didn't like helping. I think the character that mostely describes "ego," was piggy. I chose piggy because he fits in the discription of "ego" which was, "that part of me that thinks 'i am me', the conscious, selfaware aspect of consciousness."(Jameson) He was able to prove and show all of that in LOTF. For "super-ego" i would have to say samneric because just like Frederic Jameson explained it in his article, "Unconscous," a "super-ego" person knows right from wrong, and samneric knew that joining Ralph's group would not be a good choice.
I chose Christina Bachelor's question to answer. If we were living in a society like the one the boys lived in, then we would have a pretty chaotic society. The reason i say that is because too many people would try to be leaders just like Ralph and Jack, and in the end their is going to be a big war over something that shouldn't have started in the first place. Then people are going to start realizing that the war they just had wasn't worth anything but at that time it would already be too late because someone or somthing could have died or have beeen damaged permanently.
Why is it important for you to know the terms "id", "ego", and "super-ego."
From what I read, I would say that the ego would be Ralph because I feel like he is most conscious of what he is doing and of the environment around him. He cares a lot for others. The superego in the novel Lord of the Flies would be Piggy in my opinion because he feels the guilt of what others do but never quite speaks up and he lets others walk all over him as long as it makes them happy. Piggy is the typical people pleaser. The id would have to be Jack because in his mind, he always comes first. Jack is always right and that's how he likes it/wants it to be. He is power hungry and wants what he thinks is best, which is usually whats not best for the group/matter at hand.
To answer Kenneth's question, I think it is easy to pick these rules out because really no matter where you look there is always going to be these characters. Sometimes, even in yourself, you can find all three of these. There will always be these parts differentiated in books/stories.
My question is- Why do you think this passage was picked to relate to LOTF?
After reading the novel the Lord of the Flies and after reading the article "Unconscious", I think that the person that would be the id in the book would be Jack because most of his actions were basically major responses to Ralphs commands and judgement. His subconscious took over him eventually turning him into a savage such as when he was talking with the others screaming for the presence of "meat" and "pig, pig pig," (Golding 54). Jack's drive was his will to hunt which made him the brute he turns out to be from the disagreement with Ralph and Piggy to the different ideals each had such as the ruling of the island and the primary goals of each other.
The ego character of the novel would be Ralph because he stood up to anyone and did anything he felt was necessary for the survival of the whole pact. His ego was "self aware and conscious" since he made his decisions willingly. (Jameson 1) Ralph had that "i am me" mentality especially when anyone tried to talk sense into him like Piggy. He gave orders strictly but not without good reason. His head kind of got too big for himself when he started acting like his problems stood greater than the other kids.
The last person that would be the super ego would be Simon because he was that inner"policeman" that he had things to say and many ideas he couldve told the whole people but he chose to never speak out and stood confined to himself and he never comes out to anyone. He feels that if it isnt important he shouldnt speak of it or even discuss it. His attitude is just private and silent.
In response to Beejal K's question, i think that Golding wanted to portray a sense of our humanity and how we can be when balance and order is lost or when others cant fend for themselves. Golding gives us a rude awakening in his book that not only tries to tell you not to make the same mistake and just to see life in a different way.
My question is do you think the unconscious would have had an major or little effect on the book had it been written from a different style such as another focus from another topic. Justify your answer
After reading the article "Unconscious" by Adam Roberts, I began to understand how each aspect related to a character.
The id is the part of the mind which just acts on instinct. Those who use id just know what they want, and will do what they have to in order to get what they want. Jack represented the id because he wanted leadership, and would do everything in his power to get it. Although he was raised to be a civilized human, he began to act on instinct, using his id, and was even willing to kill to get to where he wanted to be.
The ego is the state of mind where one is in complete consciousness. "Ego" means having the ability to act rationally because you think before you act. Piggy represented this character in the book because he was the voice of reason. He was the only character to truly have stayed down-to-earth until his very sad end. Although Ralph had his moments of weakness, Piggy remained true to what was important the whole time - getting off that island, and back home.
The "super-ego" is another term for self-control. This part is the one that helps us resist temptations and breaks desires. This aspect to me was represented by Samneric. They were the only ones who stayed behind with Ralph and Piggy for awhile, and they felt "shame and guilt" when they were forced to join the other side" They did so because they knew what was right and they tried to do just that. Ralph could also represent this because he was tempted by what Jack had, particularly meat, but he stayed true to the end because he knew what was important was making it out of there.
To answer Margret H.'s question, yes I do think that the minor characters were also represented in these aspects. Like I mentioned above, Samneric show the super-ego, Roger could represent the id because he began acting on instinct. Using acts of violence with no remorse of feeling of regret of any kind shows how savage and animal-like he was becoming. When he wanted to hurt someone, he did so. Ego could also be represented by the "littleuns" because they stayed true to themselves throughout the book, and although they were influenced by Jack, I believe that they had not become savages like Jack had.
My question is: Which state of consciousness do you believe we should be in, and why is it important we do so? What could happen if we were to remain in the other ones?
After reading LORD of the FLIES, I personally think the "ego" one in the group would have to be Ralph. All Ralph wants is things to be done, he doesn't care how or why, just as long as they get done. Ralph is the most logical one. Piggy, on the other hand, would be the "super-ego" to me. Piggy has a more reasonable explanation for everything, he's the one that has the brains of them all. Jack would have to be the "id" to me. Jack just loses all control of himself and expresses that through his actions. He doesn't care about anything anyone's saying he just wants what he wants.
Response:I think Freud would split up a person's consciousness from seeing that there's not only one personality a person holds in themselves. Through different events, people have different thoughts.
Question:Why do you think William Golding chose and island for his setting?
Based on my reading of LORD OF THE FLIES, I would have to say that Jack represents "id", Ralph represents "ego", and that Piggy represents "super-ego". Jack represents "id" because towards the middle and end of the novel, the unconcious level of his conciousness that has the urge to hunt and become somewhat of a savage totally takes over his conciousness. This ends horribly because when the "id" in him takes over, the "ego" is pushed out entirely, leaving him to make disastrous decisions that end up killing Simon and Piggy, and torturing many others. Ralph represents "ego" because he is always making rational decisions in an effort to better the group as a whole throughout the entire novel. He is always concious of the fact that they're stranded on an island, and he's continously trying to do something to get them out of their situation such as keeping the signal fire burning. Piggy represents "super-ego" because he is always extremely aware of their situation and hes always thinking of new ideas from just helping the group get along or creating a signal fire to help them notify a passing ship.
To answer Briaunna C.'s question:
I think Jack acted the way he acted towards Piggy because that was when his subconcious was starting to take over and Piggy probably seemed like an easy first target for him to scare.
My question is: In what situations do you find yourself representing "id", "ego", and "super-ego"?
Once I finished reading the passage ‘Unconscious”, I instantly saw where each of the characters from Golding’s LORD OF THE FLIES. Initially, I see that the id is comparative to savagery, the most basic human instincts. This could be attributed to Jack, being that he was among those on the island to kill, as described in the beginning of chapter three. It reads that he “was bent double […] down like a sprinter, his nose only a few inches from the humid earth. Then dog-like, uncomfortably on all fours […] he stole forward.” (Golding 49) This makes Jack sound oddly animalistic in his description. Killing the pigs is the primal gratification that stimulates Jack into being. His id qualities take over as the story thickens, his quest for pig blood turn to that of his fellow man.
Although I believe that Piggy and Ralph share similarities with the last two qualities, Ralph seems to associate himself more with the aspect of super-ego. I say this because while the other boys went off to play, or in the choir’s case, hunt, Ralph kept a level head on what was rational. Ralph knew what could be done to ease the situation that they were in. Although he wasn’t the GREATEST leader, Ralph took all the boys into consideration, not just a single boy’s wants and needs. Ralph maintained as the society’s “policeman” and “break on desires and urges”, all the while trying to please a hodgepodge of ideas at once. (Jameson 56)
Lastly, I would Piggy into the category of ego. He exemplifies the qualities of the intellectual, the “sense of consciousness” that was very necessary in the society. (Jameson 56) Piggy was the voice of reason that would at times prove ineffectual due to the boy’s selfish desires. Piggy would balance out the power struggle that was Jack and Ralph (who should have been called Jackandralph). The older boys even felt that he was levelheaded enough to be left alone with the “littluns” saying that it “was [his] job”. (Golding 25) I see this as Golding attempting to classify Piggy character into the ‘ego-slot’.
To answer Troy: Each the aforementioned boys had moments that would crossover between the different elements of consciousness. Ralph certainly had moments when he was similar to ego and Piggy was close to being one with a super ego. But I chalk this up to the dynamic qualities of their characters rather than their morals or beliefs changing by themselves.
My question is: Where do YOU stand in the three elements? Which one are you and why?
After reading "Unconscious" by Frederic Jameson, Ralph seems to fit the 'ego' of the consciousness. It was a neccesity to Ralph that things got done and sometimes things that weren't of as much importance as he was making it to be, he was very worried about it and would sacrifice anything to get it done.
The "id" fits Jack. Jack becomes kind of responsible to meeting the needs of the boys on the island and everytime he tries his best to succeed at it. He tries to make the best out of the everything and processes each step in his mind. He always uses logic.
Piggy is definitely the 'super-ego'. Because he is kind of an outcast to the other boys, he is the one that is most conscious about feeling shame. He didn't want his past to follow him on the island and that is why he asked Ralph not to call him his old name.
That proves a lot as to why he fits 'super-ego'.
To answer Laura Boone's question, I don't think I would change a thing about the story. Goldging did a very good job in conveying eveyrthing that he wanted people to see and realize.
My question is if you were in the same position as the boys on the island, do you think you would be capable of doing the things that they did based on Golding's theme?
Based on what i understood of the passage Unconscious, I would have to say Ralph portrayed the ID. Throughout the book Ralph had two common goals: to be rescued and survive long enough to be able.When the fire was created Ralph just wanted it to keep going rather than burn out. He tells the boys numerous times about it and warns them of the consequences should they not heed his warning. Basically he was simple and straightforward and everything else were reflexes per say.
The Ego character most likely was Piggy, He knew who he was the whole time and where he stood amongst the other boys.I think the "self aware" portion of the reading really depicts his character. He could never really speak his mind on certain occasions due to the boys not wanting to hear him in the first place. Everyone looked down on piggy being fat and stupid, not knowing his full potential.
For the last, "super-ego", I would say Simon played it well. In the story Simon is sort of mysterious, he keeps to himself most of the time. He is definitely the most conscious of the group when he encounters the Lord of the Flies, he comprehends the true Evil and tries to confront the boys to explain what he had discovered. Jack could also play this role as he knew from the beginning he wanted to be leader of the tribe and contain power.
Giving my opinion on a precious question:
"Analyze why Freud would split up the conscious in three parts ? Where would he get such an idea from ?"
I would say that Freud sort of categorized thoughts in three subcategories which leads to conscious. I personally believe the conscious is made up of our thoughts which we use in order to act. self awareness,desires,urges,guilt all come from the mind thinking.
My question: In what different ways could this information help the students better understand LOTF or in that case any book with the same ideas?
After reading Jameson’s article, I think that Jack was the “id”, Ralph- the ego, and Simon- the superego.
As the novel went on, we saw Jack continually becoming more savage and gratifying his thirst for the hunt. These are characteristics of the unconscious. After he lost the first pig, he desired to kill more and did anything to do it. He manipulated the other boys using the Beast just to satisfy his primitive urges. Even though Jack was a civilized English choir member, as soon as he was in the right environment, his savagery made itself known. This proves the statement Freud made, “Although a person cannot access their unconscious mind directly, it nevertheless makes itself present in a number of ways.” (Jameson, pg. 56)
Simon didn’t engage in the savage acts of the other boys. Ralph didn’t either, until the end of the novel, but Ralph’s motivations were different. Ralph behaved morally because of his (and humans) need to fit in with society. He was raised in civilization and desperately wanted to return. Simon, however, was purely good, and therefore represented the super ego. He didn’t have the need to fulfill his desires because he had developed “internal restrictions.” (Jameson, pg. 56)
In response to Reema Mathew’s question, I think that the three elements shaped the plot because every plot needs an antagonist, protagonist, and conflict. The different elements manifested in the characters give the plot just that. I think the elements are necessary for this story.
My question: Do you think that any one element of consciousness is better than another?
I definitely think that, hands down, Piggy would best represent the "super-ego". He is one of the only, if not the only, boys who has any common sense since being on the island. He can determine right from wrong unlike everyone else, and is more portruding as the "super-ego" because everyone else around him doesn't know right from wrong. The "id" would be Jack, who has an insane obsession with hunting, not for the meat, but for satisfaction. He cannot decipher between want and need, first of all, and second, he doesn't have a sense of right and wrong, like Piggy. The "ego" would be Ralph. He knows who he is, despite everything, but still manages to slip, although he still is his own independent individual.
In response to Chanel's question: I think that each character I mentioned all basically remained in the same conscious. However, it was the character's personalities in general which changed, not necessarily their conscious.
My question is: Do you think that, in a way, all the boys on the island (except maybe Piggy) could be considered unconscious because they changed involuntarily? Why do you think that?
Based on my reading of "Unconscious" the characters I choose were Ralph for "id,” because he was always the one in charge. No matter what you do or how you do it Ralph would always want it done. For example: how they kept the fire burning for help, it didnt matter who did it as long it was burning or the hunting for food. The character of "ego" would be Piggy, because he always put his feelings and actions towards someone’s opinion. He was very intellectual with his answers and how he expressed them. The character for "superego" is Simon, because hh went against some of the answers. So he would just go somewhere far and think in a peaceful spot of his own.
To answer Leeza's question:
The significance of knowing which character represents one of the three elements is the personality which fits bests. As you know Ralph, Piggy and Simons character and personality throughout the book it is very open to see what character fits what.
My question is:
Who would you characterize yourself as id, ego, or superego. Explain.
After reading the "unconscious", one can see how characters in Lord Of the Flies represent the different aspects of the unconscious mind. For example, the id aspect would best be portrayed through Jack. Jack isn't necessarily conscious of his bloodlust, but his primitive instincts tell him that killing is vital to his survival. Super-ego, I believe, is best represented by Roger. Roger throws rocks near at the littluns, but never directly at them. He has subconsciously been tainted by the society back at home. There is something in him that tells him not to do something, an "inner-policeman" according to the article. Lastly, the ego aspect it represented by Simon, who doesn't fall into either category of a hunter, or a fire signal boy. He is himself. He is the only boy that doesn't get swept up by any primitive instincts that affect Jack and the other hunters.
To answer Amber Brooks's question, I think this article is important to The Lord Of The Flies because it allows the reader to understand why the boys on the island are acting the way they are. One can see how instincts can affect anyone.
My question is: Which aspect of the unconscious do you think you fit in? Why?
Based on "Unconscious" by Frederic Jameson, i feel that everybody has the three elements Jameson has stated "id," "ego'" and "super-ego." You may not realize you use these three elements but you probably have. In the story "Lord of the Flies" there are characters that do reperesent some of these elements. I would say that the character Jack would represent the "id" element because he didnt really care about anything but himself. He just wanted things to go his way. Now the element "ego" could have been Ralph or Piggy. But most likely i would say Ralph. He was always aware and took things in consideration. The element "super-ego" could have been Piggy or Simon. Simon was basically the only good hearted kid on the island and worried about other people, not just himself. Piggy could fit into that element too because he was always by Ralphs side and always helped with things.
To answer Brenda's question i would say i represent the element "super-ego" mostly because im always nice and never put people down. Im also always looking out for people and helping people out. In the book "Lord of the Flies" im mostly like the character Simon only because im never negative and always want to get through tings the best way i can without anything bad happening.
My Question:
What element would your best friend fit in to? And what character from lotf would you want to be friends with?
Based on Article "Unconscious" by Adam Robert, i think that the person that fits the title of "id" is Ralph. All Ralph cared about was getting out of the island and in order to get out from the island they needed to make a smoke, that was going all the time.but the next morning when ralph woke up and saw there was no Smoke so he called jack and got mad at him and ralph said to him "I was talking about smoke! Don't you want to be rescued? All you can talk about is pig,pig,pig!" (Golding 49) Ralph was going crazy about getting resuced from the island but he could had a good life on the island with food and everything, yet he decided not to go and join jack and to go hungry just for a wasted effort in trying to be rescued.
I think for ego the best person to represente from Lord of the flies is piggy. Piggy represented ego because he was the voice of reason. piggy was the only character to truly had hope to get of from the island until his was murderd by roger. Although Ralph wa sometimes weakened, Piggy waited for what was important the whole time - getting rescued from the island, and back to his home.
For Super-ego i think it best fits Simon. Simon always did the right thing.simon didn't got caught up in the tragedy about the "beastie" and he was very helpful.He helped ralph bulit huts,an example is "Simon was Burned by the sun to a deep tan that glistened with sweat"(Golding 50)which proves he was working all day and he was always nicer to the young kids because he had the "shame and guilt that acts as a break on desire and urges."(Robert 56)
To answer Brenda's question i would say i represent the"super-ego" because im always Friendly and never try to put other's down .From the book "Lord of the Flies" im mostly likey to represent the character Piggy because im never give up and i always have this hope i won't mess up when i do things.
My Question: which character from LOFT was most Supportable to Ralph? And Explain why?
After reading both, Lord of the Flies by William Golding, and Unconscious by Adam Roberts, it is clear that Jack best represents the "id" in the book. He wasn't conscious of how he and the rest of the kids were going to be rescued; he just wanted to focus on the enjoyment he got out of killing pigs. "He's not a hunter. He'd never have got us meat. He isn't a prefect and we don't know anything about him. He just gives orders and expects people to obey for nothing" (Golding 144).
The character that represents "ego" would be Ralph.He realized that he was the chief and how the things went on the island depended on him. And that he had to make the right choices for everyone to survive.
Response to Lauren M.'s question: I think the author choose the island because the environment will be completely strange to them as well the jungle contains many things that are extraordinary to the children. SO that will make the book more interesting as well.
My question is that is it possible to actually separate the character to a "good" and a "bad" list? Where they just bad or good or where they forced to be on of them just to survive?
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Based on the "Unconscious" article written by Frederic Jameson, I believe that Ralph is best fit for the person who has 'id', 'ego', and 'superego'. Ralph was one of the characters who had the most conscious mind of all. He know wrong from right most of the time, and at other times he acted as if he had no conciousness, but he was always proud to be himself.
Ralph expressed his 'super ego' the most through out the book, no matter what happened he was always worried about something feeling "shame and guilt.."(Jameson 56). "At last Ralph stopped. He was shivering....That was Simon."(Golding 156) Ralph was tragically depressed for what happened to Simon, he didn't know what to do or what to say. He knew that what just happened had meant that they had all crossed the line.
During the beginning of the book "The Lord of The Flies" Ralph wasn't as aware of maturity and all he wanted was to be the top. This is where he shows his conscious 'id'. "...just wants, and it doesn't care how or why."(Jameson 56) Ralph wouldn't care what he had to do at that moment, but did what he could just to get the kids attention. "He wants to know what you're going to do about the snake-thing...Ralp laughed and the other boyslaughed with him..."(Golding 35) Ralph caused the little shy boy to feel shame to the point where they never saw hime again. He was unconcious about what he did.
Ralphs thoughts and actions expressed in "The Lord of The Flies" describe all of Freuds elements of consciousness. Ralph showed most of his inner conscious with what he chose to do in his situations. Ralph gives a meaning to what Freud spoke about.
Base on the article the "super ego" would have to be simon for the sole that that through his death the boys were able to see there wrong and how truly far gone they were. They may not have openly stated there guilt or the wrongs they knew they did but in there subconscious mind they knew that they had taken it too far. Even jack the "id" had to remind himself as well as others that it wasn't there fault. He kept repeating it out loud until that became his truth. He was so caught up in disagreeing with the one he as well as the others chose to put in charge that he and his little group of "hunters" lost sight of there goal. With the freedom and lack of a mature authority plus the chance to be an authority figure himself he failed to realize that he was letting the enemy,his mind, deceive him. He and his "choir," (minus simon of-course) kept pushing the boundaries and seeing as no one challenged him he pushed until he himself knew none.
Christina Z.s Q: When you go to war your environment changes as well as your survival instincts. When you are in that environment you put aside your "super ego" and bring forefront your "id" because you cant think about the little boy being innocent when you both are on the opposite sides of the battlefield. You have to think about how best to protect you comrades as well as yourself. On the island jack wasn't thinking about his "comrades" he was thinking about his selfish desires and how he could accomplish them by any means.
My Q:Is it easier for a child to loose their "super ego" to "id" or adults? explain.
After reading "The Lord of the Flies" as well as the "Unconscious" article, I would reason that the 'ego' describes Ralph, the 'super-ego' to be Simon, and, unsurprisingly, the 'id' to be Jack. Ralph came to my mind after reading about the 'ego' because it was explained as "the conscious, selfaware aspect of consciousness" (Roberts 3-4). Although Ralph had his momentary lapses of poor judgment in his word choice towards some of the boys, he was never unaware of what he was saying or why he was saying it. He was the leader and he knew what needed to be done in order to survive. He did not act on selfish instincts like most boys, but instead acted in accordance to hopes of achieving order and sustaining life. Continuing, the description of the 'super-ego' is "a force that manifests itself in feelings of conscious, shame and guilt and acts as a break on desires and urges" (Roberts 5-6). I immediately related this to Simon with the specific image of Simon's encounter with the Lord of the Flies in my mind. Although he did not expect have this encounter, that is exactly where the subconscious element of it comes into play. He needed a place to be away from the craziness that was beginning to ensue the boys so he ran away to his own spot out of his internal desires to do so. He then understood, from the imagined and hallucinated-like Lord of the Flies, where the craziness and true evil was ultimately rooted from. Lastly, 'id' is "where all our primitive desires and urges come from... This 'unconscious' embodies the primal, instinctual drives toward gratification" (Roberts 7-9). This seemed, to me, to have Jack written all over it. From the very beginning Jack focused on his internal desires to lead the boys in such a way to where he was consumed by these desires in which he no longer had to think about it, but rather it was a distinct and strong aspect of his personality and demeanor. This is where the "instinctual" part of Jack comes from. His instincts were to hunt and to lead despite all the conflicts he caused from these acts. Further, even when the conflicts grew and grew, Jack did not attempt to recognize his destructive instincts or suppress them.
To answer Alfred A.'s question:
I believe William Golding's purpose in implementing children rather than adults in "The Lord of the Flies" is simply to further his major themes of man vs. wild and intellect vs. savagery. It is not uncommon for adults to argue over power and not uncommon for adults to understand more about survival than children. The boys had the opportunity to create their own society on this island without the rules of their superiors, therefore making decisions on their own with only the knowledge they have from their upbringings. They are young and innocent, making their acts and occurrences all the more extreme than they would have been had the characters been adults.
My question is:
Do you agree or disagree with Freud's three explanations of man and his conscious, or lack of, and do you think any other aspects of humans and their personalities should be taken into consideration? Why or why not?
In the article "Unconscious" the ego is Ralph because he is sure of himself, he is aware of himself and knows what he is doing. The id is Jack, he has a leader personality and by the end of the book he turns into an animal-like person. The superego is Piggy because Piggy is a very by-the-rules with the way he tells Ralph what he thinks is best and always knows what needs to do.
ANSWER TO MARAGRET H'S QUESTION: Ralph is like Samneric with their own personalities they are in their own minds and their own way. Piggy is like Roger in the way that they are always on their own. They spend time by themselves. Simon and Jack are both strong. They know what they want to do and they aren't afraid much of the time.
QUESTION:
What are the differences between Jack and Ralph? Samneric and Piggy? Explain.
From the novel Lord of the flies, I would say that the "id" is Jack. He was ruthless, and would do anything to get what he wanted done. When Piggy was killed, he simply warned Ralph that if he continued to go against what he wanted that Ralph would have the same bad ending as Piggy did. The "ego" would have probably been Ralph because he would mostly think of himself. For example, when he first met Piggy, he didn't think of sticking with him. All he kept thinking was, I'M free! When Piggy told Ralph that he did not like being called Piggy, he burst into laughter because it was funny for HIM. I believe that maybe Simon would be the "super ego" character because he would realized what the true evil was when he was talking to the Lord of the Flies. He found that it was easy to give into your inner darkness, but you must resist. He had a conscience, because even though everyone thought he was crazy, he would still be nice to them and try to help keep the peace. I think this article is useful for Lord of the Flies because it gives you a look into why characters would act the way they did.
My question: In your opinion, do you think that the "Unconscious" could pertain to the "litluns" and NOT just the MAIN characters?
Based on what I have read, i think this article is useful to the story "Lord of the Flies" because, characters are very important to a story. In this blog they're telling us about the important charaters egos.This information is good to know because it shows us which roles their playing in this story, and it's telling us what the charaters were put in this story for.
So basically this blog is good for us to know because it's telling us about the main characters and tellings us their jobs that they have in this novel.
To answer kia's question I think Simon portrayed the "super ego" because he was the most concious one. He didnt listen to others . He knew what he said was right and didnt care what anybody else thought.
My question: why wasnt the character Jack , put in this blog? Wasnt he more of an ego than piggy and Simon?
Soon after reading Unconscious, by Adam Roberts, I've come to the conclusion that the character Jack, in Lord of the Flies, should be classified as the "id" as he is rather selfish, self-centered, and believes solely in doing things his way "regardless of how and why" (Roberts 56). I believe the element "super-ego" matches Piggy the best, simply because he is more in control of himself. Also, the fact that he is the cleverest of the bunch also contributes to him being the "super-ego." Ralph is the leader of the boys and everyone looks up to him as well as acts according to his instructions (at least in the beginning) because he is the most coherent and realistic one, hence, he fits the element “ego.”
Response to Ammar Fakhar: Yes, I do believe that the boys would be able to recognize Jack and Ralph’s elements if they were shown what they were, because Jack and Ralph are somewhat the exact opposites and are easy to tell apart.
Question: Which one of the three elements would Roger fit in to? Explain your answer.
based on my opinions of this novel "Lord of the flies".Reading "Unconcious" reading that jack didnt care to much about the things that were done, as long as it got done. He was not focused on anything but hunting,his mind wasn't set on anything else.The id has over-powering his conscious, when he has finally succeed that "want" from the id, which is slaughtering a pig, he feels impowering, therefore increasing his ego to the next level, which is next the superego.
answering Arica Barnett's quetion:the reason jack wasn't put into the blog about his ego because, he wasnt focused on his ego or super ego, he was to much on to hunting.
my question: why was Simon's ego the 'Super ego"?
Based on the article 'Unconcious' the characters that fit ego and superego are extremely obvious (Piggy and Simon). Both these characters show the will and self-awareness to resist urges, and the fact that Simon represents the Jesus Christ figure of this story and Piggy who represented what was left of government. Though now I realize that it wasnt the tribe that killed these boys but the character that has gone by many names like the creepers inhumanity, and Lord of the Flies. That character is 'id'.
Id has been stalking the boys ever since they crash landed on the island. It slowly infected the boys until they were in deep unconsciousness. Those who opposed id were killed brutally and swiftly by the use of the desire to kill and feel safe from those which id created. But once the boat came with men that could suppress desires, id had to flee into the depths of the children and release them from their trance.
This proves that id lies within everyone and can take of ones actions and feelings. But there are ways to control the beast within by the use of ego and superego no matter if it is Treasure Island or WW2.
Answer to Kasey S.:
Unconsciousness unfortunately lies within every human and seeing how the littluns took part in the killing of Simon i would have to say yes.
Question:
What other examples of id, ego, and superego are there in other sources of literature?
After reading the book the Lord of the Flies and after reading the article "Unconscious", I think that the person that would be the "id" in the book would be Jack because most of his actions were major responses to Ralphs commands and judgement.The superego in the novel Lord of the Flies would be Piggy in my opinion because he feels the guilt of what others do but never quite speaks up and he lets others walk all over him. "The ego is a selfware aspect of life and conciousness" (Roberts 56)
To respond to Alex Question there are many accredited ego's in Literature such as Greek Mythology and Biographies.
My question is Determine the status and interpret the traits of someone who has a super ego.
Based on what I have read n "Unconscious" Jack represented one of the three "id","Ego","super ego". Jack best represented "id" because he had a goal he wanted to reach and he would do anything to reach that goal no matter if meant harm to the people surrounding him. The character that fits the term "ego" I think is Ralph. Ralph realized who he was as the leader of the boys so he took his role and did what he had to do how he had to do it he was all about buissness.The character that represents the last and final term "super ego" is simon. He was the boy with the halo who was always doin the wright thing he appeared as diffident.
According to Freud’s Unconscious, any one person’s conscious is made up of three parts, the ‘ego’, ‘super ego’ and the ‘id’. In Lord of the Flies, however, certain characters seem to dominate only one of these parts, almost as if all three characters together would make one whole person. For this reason the boys were able to maintain a “sort of balance”, because they depended on each other. For example the ego, or “conscious, self aware aspect of consciousness”, is best depicted by Ralph. Ralph is first introduced as a character whom is the naturally confident leader whom is determined to be rescued and help the other boys on the island survive. From the start Ralph is aware that, because “There aren’t any grown ups, [the boys] have to look after themselves.”(Golding 33). He tries to maintain order by calling meetings, assigning “jobs” to people and even telling the boys that they “…must make smoke on top of the mountain”, in order for a ship to rescue them. (Golding 38). Although he is not perfect, and does participate in Jack’s dance that kills Simon, he does feel remorseful and guilty, that is why he is classified as “ego”, because he does have a balance between “primitive desires and a conscience” (Freud 1). Jack, on the other hand, is someone that acts on “primitive desires and urges”, rather than logically thinking things out. (Freud 1). Jack would much rather “hunt and kill”, than build shelter or act civilized (Golding 54). Later in the novel Jacks lack of morality and true primitive ways are evident as he “[punched] the mouth below him,...with more and more passionate hysteria as the face became slippery.” (Golding 167). Jack had no reason to act like such a savage, yet he did because he was acting on his “subconscious, primitive desires” (Freud 1). The “super-ego” character was Simon. No matter what Simon always tried to do what was right. In many instances he even had to escape away from the evil all round him and go to his “special spot”, unfortunately for Simon, he is the only moral person on the island and is ultimately killed because it was him against every other immoral on the island. Simon’s, “inner police man” led him to want to share the true identity of the beast, but was unable to because the “Id “ part of the group prevented that.(Freud 1). At first the “Id” (Jack), “ego” (Ralph)and “super ego”(Simon), worked well together but as the balance between the three was disturbed, the society failed. Being three separate people rather than three aspects of one person, they could not benefit fro each others ideas, and suppress primitive or immoral desires.
In response to Rachel W: I agree with Freud's three explanations of man and his unconscious, because it seems very logical. I don’t think that any other aspect of human personalities should be taken into consideration, because essentially all human minds work in the same way. Although, I believe that some people have stronger “Ids”, “ego” or “super egos” and this can effect the way they are. For this reason the three main ways the human subconscious was broken up in “Unconscious” seems credible and logical.
Question: How do the “id”, “ego and “super ego” characters benefit and affect one another in Lord of the Flies? Do you think this is this significant or coincidental? Explain.
After reading "Unconscious" by Frederic Jameson, I have come to the conclusion that Ralph fits the description of "id", because he could care less how things happened, as long as they did. To me, the "ego" character would be Piggy because he definitely knew who he was, he also wasn't afraid to speak up to the other boys, when they clearly disrespected him. of all the characters, Simon portrayed the "super-ego" the most, simply because he went against some urges that other boys could not hold back, and because he seemed to know what he was doing and understand why he was doing these things.
to answer Alfred A's question: "What do you believe was the author's purpose in implementing children instead of adults in "Lord of the Flies"?"
i believe william gloding used children instead of adults to show that evil can lurk within the most pure forms. the author also showed us all sorts of evil ranging from simon ( who was entirely good) to jack (who seemed to be a devil reincarnate of sorts).
my question is : do you think that the id, ego and super ego could pertain to all of the characters, in one way or another?
Based on my Knowledge and a bit of research on the Article and Mr.Freud's ideals, the ID would have to be Jack as he is succumbed by his urge to inflict pain upon the pig although he covers it up by suggesting he merely does it for the meat although his pleasure is rather obvious in the vicious way he slays the Animal. The Super-Ego would have to be Piggy, as he things socially correct and logically by instinct and his ideas are not without goodness at hearts, the other Super-Ego could be Simon but Simon doesn't act upon his feelings and thoughts enough to be it in my opinion. The obvious choice for Ego would be Ralph he did everything realistically, from the Fire to the structure of his camp he did not think they would be rescued by mere luck he knew the fire was key and possibly the only way to be saved.
To Answer Lauren Philpott's Question, Yes it could pertain to any character as almost all characters with a name had aspects of at least one of the Unconscious Personalities, other than the Littluns
My Question Do you Think Roger is a ID Explain Why or Why Not.
When reading Lord of the Flies, by William Golding, one is able to identify a character for each of Freud's elements of consciousness: id, ego, and super-ego. The character who represents the "id" element is Jack because all of his "primitive desires and urges" steadily rise up from within him as the story progresses. Jack "just wants, and...doesn't care how or why" (Roberts). Jack is the kind of boy who does thing his way and expects others to follow. When he seperates his hunters (choir boys) from the other boys he knows that because of his intense attitude and new animal-like instincts, people will follow him.
The character who represents the “ego” element would be Ralph because he is "the conscious, selfaware" leader of the island--the boy who has his priorities in order and knows what needs to be done in order to increase their chances of being rescued (Roberts). Ralph is the one who took everyone's saftey and survival into consideration. unlike Jack, who was only focused on his personal desires.
The character who represents the “super-ego” element would be Simon because he is the one of the boys who has the most obvious "inner-policeman, a force that manifests itself in feelings of conscience, shame and guilt and acts a break on desires and urges" (Roberts).He was always able to control his feelings and was the helper. Simon assisted Ralph in building shelters and searching the island. He never got in anyone's way or questioned the leader.
To Answer Janey D’s Question: I don’t think the story line would hve changed if there was more than one “super ego” because I believe that both, Piggy and Simon, would fall into that category. The story didn’t change because of it. The only important element that was vital to having only one character assigned to would be the “id” element. This is because it is basically the antagonist.
My Question is: If the boys had never been rescued, who do you think would have been the last to survive,why?
i do agree with amber when she says the "id" is ralph because in the book, there is no way that he tries to get things done. just as long as everything goes the way he wants them to. the super ego to me would actually be simon because hes the misunderstood and the guilty one. jack is the one that fits best for the aspects of the unconsious.
my question is... if jack,ralph,and piggy werent there to lead the children, how would u think the island would be controlled with samneric and the other little children as the liluns?
After reading "Unconscious," I've come to the conclusion that Jack best fits the 'id' aspect of the unconscious. He "[worked] outside the realms of reasonableness; [he] just wants, and [didn't] care how or why," (Jameson, 56). Jack wanted to be a leader, and even though he knew it would split the island, he decided to go off and make his own group just so that he could lead and have things his way.
On the other hand,Piggy best fits the ego, in my opinion. He was "the concious [and] selfaware" person that knew his limitations and never went out of his way to help(Jameson 56). He didn't go hunting, nor did he try to fight anyone or start any trouble. He knew his role, which was to be the intellectual of the group.
Ralph best fits the super-ego. He is "a sort of inner-policeman, a force that manifests itself in feelings of conscience, shame and guilt and acts as a break on desires and urges." (Jameson 56). He was the leader and enforced some of the rules. Though many of the group wanted to go with Jack, he was able to break that urge and show them why they shouldn't. His shame comes from when everybody left his group for Jack's group.
in response to Sharlin J's question: I think Ralph has the better personality because he does have the courage to lead. Piggy and Ralph have a few of the same qualities, but the one major difference is Piggy's inability to lead.
question: Do you think the littluns fit any aspect of consciousness? If so, which one and why? If not, why NOT?
The character that best represents super-ego is Roger. Roger is held back by his old ways and the discipline that he received at home. “Roger gathered a pile of stones and began to throw them. Yet there was a space round Henry, perhaps six yards in diameter, into which he dare not throw. Here, invisible yet strong, was the taboo of the old life…the protection of parents and school and policemen and the law” (Golding 62). Roger is programmed to not hurt people and not to instigate. Even on the island, although he wishes to hit Henry with a stone, he cannot bring himself to do it. There is an unconscious restriction on his desires. This super-ego stands out when Roger transforms to the character that everyone on the island is the most afraid of. “’You don’t know Roger. He’s a terror’” (Golding 189). The twins are scared of Roger, so they will not leave castle rock, for fear that Roger will disturb them. This is a complete 180 turn around for his character.
Ego is portrayed well by Piggy. Piggy is always thinking. He is logical and makes sense of things. Ralph became envious of Piggy’s intellect once he recognized it. Piggy is quite self aware and acted as a voice of reason throughout the story.
Jack fits with id. After he is unable to kill a pig after trying his hardest, he becomes frustrated and this is when the tribal senses come into play. Jack “just wants” to kill pigs and worries about nothing else. He wants to eat. He wants instant gratification. Jack starts to be primitive and ultimately animalistic.
To answer Chanel’s question:
Roger changed from super-ego to id. He goes from self-controlled to barbaric.
My question:
Rename Freud’s categories, keeping the same meaning and order. Explain why you chose those names.
My Response to Prompt:
After reading "Unconscious", i've come to the conclusion that Jack, Ralph, and the common kids of the island are the three core persona in Lord of the Flies that illustrates the three components of man's consciousness.
Jack, with his dependence on hunting and uncontrollable eruptions of violence as a means to sustain his wishes, exhibits the traits of Id, "the primitive desires and urges" that epitomize the "instinctual drives towards gratification" (Roberts 56). One of the most prevalent examples of Id is seen when Jack abandon's his post at the fire to hunt pig to quench his bloodlust and refuel the necessity to hunt. Due to his Id like characteristics, he had few qualms with letting the fire die and only devoted a zenith of his conscious to contemplate how his actions would hurt the others in the process.
Ralph on the other hand, held more attributes to that of Ego who prided himself in his public speaking capabilities all the while remaining "the selfaware aspect" of society; doing his utmost to keep a bold face and enforce laws that he saw were need to be upheld i.e. the fire (Roberts 56).
The final portion of the human conscience is that of Super Ego; which best fits the majority of children on Coral Island. Super Ego "manifests itself in feelings of conscience, shame, guilt" serving as "a break [from the] desires and urges" impressed upon them by Ego and Id. In layman's terms, this basically means that the other children (such as the liluns and lesser biguns) just went with the flow as opposed to acting on there own accord. For instance, despite a few individuals, many of the other characters expressed little to any intellectual thought during the meetings called by Ralph. They were content in just doing what they saw either Ralph or Jack do. However, though their contributions weren't as obvious, their reactions to the crisis on the island reflected them as true individuals. When Simon was killed, they were following Jack in his berserker charge, but after they realized what they'd done, the shame of their deed resided in their hearts and everyone save Jack felt terrible for what had happened to Simon.
In Response to Alfred A.:
Golding's choice for utilizing children instead or adults is best supported for the process of maturation that they'd inevitably go through on the island. Typically, adults will already have a structured belief system for government and social structures as well as a more elaborate problem solving method than children. With kids, the eldest not even reaching their teens, their personalities, political beliefs, and minds haven't fully developed. Thus allowing the author practically limitless freedom when constructing his characters and opening the path to either evolving their slightly predetermined traits from their parents, or allowing them to completely abolish the regulations set for them in an organized society and allow the inbred savagery in all human beings to run rampant.
My Question:
Analyze the deaths and or personality changes in pivotal characters such as Ralph, Piggy, Jack, Simon, ect. Is there any existing pattern in the deaths or changes in characters with explicit connections with either the ego, super ego or id personalities? Why or why not & support answer with concrete details (quotes).
Based on the readings, Adam Roberts shows how the charters description of ralph is like "id" because he really didnt care how things got done he just wanted them to be done because it was important to him. The main example would be the fire like when he was yelling at jack beacause he went hunting instead of taking care of the main thing which was the fire.The "ego" would be Piggy. He always was sure of himself and he knew who he was always right without a doubt. Even though he wasn't respected by everyone bcause he was difrent from the other people, he still never gave up on himself. He was always aware of what was going on. When Jack and some of the others were calling him fatty and other names, he still put forth his opinion and tried to make them see what the right thing to do was. The "super-ego" would be Jack. Jack always acts on instincts and his own opinions. He didn't do a good job with listening to others and what they thought. He thought it would be better to go hunting instead of watching the fire. Jack always said that you need food to survive more than you need a fire. While he was out hunting and nobody was watching the fire, the fire went out and that caused an argument among Ralph and the boys. Jack didn't think about the importance of having a fire going at all times.
To answer Lauren P question, yes it can apply to any other charcter other thean hte little ones.
After reading “Unconscious” the character who best fits the “super-ego” would be Simon. I say this because Simon would be conscious about his surroundings and like the passage says [he would]… break on desires and urges. Next is Jack who fits the “id” element. The “id” person is described as [someone who] works outside of realms of logic or reasonableness; it just wants, and doesn’t care how or why. Even though he was subconscious of the need of shelter and fire he chose just to hunt. Finally “ego” that was best fitted by Ralph. Who alike “ego” he is in-between, Ralph has a bit of both, in feelings of conscious and just wants, and it doesn’t care how or why. For example when Ralph was building the shelters and everyone ignored him his ego got hurt witch brought out the part were he just wanted it to be done and didn’t care how. Other example was when they had killed Simon; he felt shame and guilt and was conscious of what had happened.
Now answering Sasha C. question: They aren’t contradicting themselves; they say is inaccessible because you’re subconscious which means it exist in our minds but not available to our consciousness
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